Returning Guest, Michelle Gladieux — Communicate with Courage: Evolving Leadership

In 3, 2, 1.

Welcome back to Becoming Preferred, the podcast where we dive deep into the mindsets, strategies, and communication habits that help you level up your game and become the best version of you.

Back in season two, we were joined by executive coach and author Michelle Gladio for a transformative conversation on what it truly means to communicate with courage.

She showed us how smart risks, brave feedback, and mastering our internal self talk can completely elevate our leadership.

Now, five seasons later, the business landscape looks drastically different between rapid AI integration, distributed teams, and shifting market demands.

Clear and courageous communication isn't just a nice to have skill.

It's an absolute necessity for survival and growth.

Today, Michelle returns to season seven to help us upgrade our self talk, navigate digital friction, and break through the hidden communication traps holding our businesses back.

Please join me for my conversation with Michelle Gladio.

Well, hey, Michelle, welcome back to the program.

We're delighted to have you back again.

I'm thrilled to be back.

I can't believe how fast season two has turned into season seven.

Congratulations.

Well, thank you very much.

Yeah, no, time flies when you're having fun.

It's.

We're well over almost approaching 300 episodes now, so we're pretty excited about that.

But thanks to guests like you.

And we're happy to have you back again because we think what you were talking about was very appropriate back in, you know, three, four years ago in season two.

But I.

We think it's even more appropriate today's world with all the change that's going on.

So we'll have some fun.

How are things?

Just quick update.

How are things going with you?

Good.

I'm located in Fort Wayne, Indiana, in the northeast corner of the state, team of eight, and we are doing a lot of executive and employee coaching.

We're doing some strategic planning, and we also love to design and teach workshops in just about every type of communication skill, skill that you can think of.

So it's a blessed existence, I would say.

But you also know how it is to own your own business.

And so we're always looking for the right fit, the right team or the right client to work with.

I think it's a great way to spend a life is watching people, you know, watching people, what you do and what I do grow as communicators.

Well, and it's watching it, how the communication changes and how it evolves.

I mean, to me, now we have five generations of buyers out in the marketplace and people we deal with in the workforce, and they all communicate just a little bit differently.

We're all Humans, but we, they have their own values and not good or bad or, but they just do.

And so we have to learn how to talk and talk to the people where they're at.

The book was called Communicate with Courage.

Taking Risks to Overcome four Hidden Challenges.

So we're going to get into that, talk about it and how that's been updated for today's marketplace.

But hey, when you joined us back in season two, we talked about taking smart risks to communicate with courage.

Now that we're in season seven, business leaders are dealing with AI integration, hybrid fatigue and rapid organizational shifts.

How has the definition of courageous communication evolved, evolved since your last visit with us?

I think it might be something that is evergreen actually, Michael.

I think it has to do with knowing yourself and checking yourself, as in like knowing your strengths and weaknesses and then not over playing your hand towards your strengths.

Being willing to be vulnerable around what you don't know or what you just said that wasn't helpful or appropriate, et cetera.

It's a lot of work with ego.

You know, we all need an ego to help us create boundaries, to keep ourselves safe and treated respectfully.

But we also need to sometimes tamp it down a bit so that we can be curious learners at every age.

One of my favorite coaching sessions of last week is with a 73 year old person that I serve on a board with in the construction industry.

And it was so deep and it was so heartening for me to see him telling me, I read my personality report, I've got a bunch of notes, you know, we were on video, he's in California, see all my notes.

And then he said, Michelle.

And I was even dreaming about myself in some of these scenarios that the report describes and remembering when I was running a larger company and I wish I would have been maybe less controlling, used more delegation techniques, et cetera.

And it just inspires me so much.

So back to your question.

Right.

How has the need for courage changed his age?

Old.

It's an age old need and we're always going to be fighting mostly with ourselves I think, because courage, obviously no one can give it to you.

You have to pull it forth from within.

It's tough stuff, but you know, we only live once and we live for such a short time.

I'd like to see people work on their skills and be a little braver as communicators to maybe let more, let more opposing ideas in every so often.

Sure.

Well, and you talk about it, I mean you've come up with these, what you call them, the four Sneaky obstacles that keep you from becoming the best communicator you could possibly be.

Let's talk about those and unpack them just a little bit and maybe how they've evolved for today's world.

So first one is hiding fear of exposing your supposed weaknesses.

Still the same, still evergreen.

What are you seeing?

What kind of transformations have you seen from people who maybe, you know, had that fear of exposing those weakness?

What does that really look like, and how does that translate?

And do you have an example of maybe what exposing might look like?

Yeah, I do.

Let's see.

So courage is something intangible, but it's vital, and we always have to find it within ourselves, as we've said.

So one of the things that we coach clients to do is to get very clear on their values and to figure out what their unique mission is at this age and stage in their life and in their work.

And we might have multiple missions, of course, in the workplace or at home in our personal lives, but once we get clear on our values and unique mission, then we can start thinking about what we lose when we hang back instead of getting in the game.

One example that comes to mind was teaching.

I was teaching a team workshop for a large accounting firm, and I was teaching four different types of power.

Positional power, knowledge power, referent power, et cetera.

And I thought it would be interesting just to ask everyone to pick one type of power to grow in.

And then I would like to see a show of hands who chose what.

So I'm choosing personal power and working on, for example, my warmth and diplomacy when giving feedback.

Something that's always important for dominant driver personalities, excited, you know, assertive personalities to know how to.

To do that well.

And we got to positional power, and I asked the group, does anyone choose this?

People usually don't because oftentimes they think I don't know about a higher or more difficult or management position in this organization because it looks like more headaches than it is.

So we don't see that when chosen very often.

But there was one lady in the back out of this entire accounting firm, very kind of quietly raised her hand, kind of gave me sort of a little wink like me, and I said, oh, my gosh, it's amazing.

I'm going to ask the partners in the front row.

Can you just turn around really quickly to see who's got their hand up?

And boy, she shot me a look that could have turned me to stone for that moment.

But she's a partner now.

She had not yet announced to the people with positional power that she would like to be considered.

So they had no idea.

So that moment that her hand went up, she stopped hiding from risk and took a chance, and she kept it up.

Now, I did call her on the way out and just chatted with her to make sure that was okay.

And we've stayed in touch since.

And she's brought a lot to that team as a partner.

It's interesting how the courage, or the lack of courage, because we're scared of that rejection.

Right.

Versus piping up and going after what you want.

You know, it's interesting that you say that that way.

My daughter and I had a chat one time.

She was working for a company, and she was making six figures just over.

And so she was happy.

It was good salary.

She wanted to get a raise, but she was bringing in a lot of value.

And she didn't want to go from, like, you know, 100,000 to 105,000 and 110 small little increments every year and get your annual yearly bump.

So I said, well, what do you really want to make?

And she gave me that number, and it was a significant number.

I said, okay, well, next time you go in for your interview, I said, don't say, hey, I want to raise and do this, and just say, look, this is what I want to be making.

I want to reverse engineer this.

What do I need to do?

What do I need to accomplish?

What needs to occur for me to make this much great idea, dad.

Yeah.

And they came.

Yeah.

I don't get that often, but that one was a good one.

And so it's that parent thing.

Right.

But she did, and she makes a great living because she said, look, I don't want these small increments.

I'm interested in adding maximum value.

Help me.

What needs to happen?

What should my numbers be for me to earn that?

And they gave her those numbers, and she achieved that objective.

So I agree with you.

It's that courage and it's courage about speaking in generally just.

And talking.

You know, this goes for young men dating today.

They.

They, you know, they swipe right to meet girls.

Right?

And they don't talk, they don't take the risks, they don't show the vulnerability and get.

Yeah, you might get shot down.

You might get told no, but that's the worst of it.

Versus.

But what you get therapeutically from doing it, though, is boldness and resiliency, I think.

Anyway, let's talk about defining, putting too much stock into assumptions and being quick to judge sure.

So we have to summon courage to test our assumptions rather than relying on them.

And that can rock you to your very core.

Because what your grandparents or stepparents or parents or older siblings or coach or pastor or teacher, whomever taught you, you know what, it might have been a little misinformed.

It might have been rooted in bias.

It might have been to keep them feeling good about themselves, but not really let in any open or constructive or critical feedback.

So we can celebrate when we have the guts to accept that maybe our hunch was wrong or that our information was incorrect or that we misspoke.

I find it helpful to try to notice role models all around me at every age.

This could be a 4 year old.

It could be a 94 year old.

Could be your server at the restaurant.

Could be somebody that you know through business who get good at listening rather than talking to win.

Because I am so verbal and I was raised in a competitive, very achievement oriented family.

You know, as the only daughter and the, and the youngest, I, I sort of went from very, very shy to like, screw it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw my voice out there.

And it was very.

I'm very glad I chose to do that in my youth as a kid because it's really made me more comfortable stepping onto large stages and thinking to myself, well, I know my topic.

I have love for these people.

Whoever the recipients of the message or the interactive workshop participants are and who I am as far as head to toe, five, eight, brunette, you know, whatever my age, my gender, it, my race, it doesn't matter that much as long as I am looking at myself as a conduit or a medium for an important message that I'm there to deliver and also to learn from them.

So those are some thoughts about being brave.

And yes, I think public speaking.

By the way, you mentioned presentation skills in public speaking.

We should all be putting our hand up for that.

If it's a toast at a wedding, go for it.

Write it in your, in your car on the way and think about why you care about this couple.

And then stand up and say, I'd like to add just a few words or a quick story, if I may.

And while you're shaking, you might be shaking on the inside or outside.

You know, don't have too many drinks before you do this.

This is like a wondering thing.

Max, you can have another drink after to celebrate, but so what?

And my clients will say, well, Michelle, you know, you, I came to, I came to see them speak, to give them feedback.

I'M taking notes in the back.

And they'll say something like, well, my voice shook or my face was red.

And although you mentioned rejection is the worst that can happen, we have to remember that evolutionarily.

Is that a word?

Evolutionarily?

That was life or death for humans.

If we were excluded, we were done.

So I think we all carry some of that in our DNA.

Can I say something about your daughter's negotiation situation?

Yeah, sure.

Okay.

Two things about that.

Three, I'm so grateful she has parents like you and Beth to help guide her along the way.

What an advantage.

And if we don't have that in our life, we have to find some role models and mentors that will give us some time.

Right, Right.

So the two things I was thinking, I hope she used a range when she went in and said, I'm interested in making X.

What do I need to do?

How do I add more value to earn that in your eyes?

I'm.

I'm hoping she used a range.

She did.

Good.

Rather than a number and a big frame framing it absolutely great.

Like a $10,000 range.

It was bigger than that.

Yeah.

No, it was like.

Instead of.

Instead of going from 100, 110, it was like, I want to make a buck 50.

I want to make 150 to 200.

Then on my next.

But once I get there, I'm going to 250.

So she had to stand.

So tell me, work it backwards.

What?

What?

Because she raises money.

So it just gave her bigger.

It just gave her bigger goals and bigger percentages to do it.

So.

Yeah.

And second thing is, I love that the whole communication around that negotiation was basically her saying, I believe I know my market value, and I believe it is, or it is soon going to be more than this position is.

Is written to provide.

So it's all about market value.

Isn't negotiation fun?

I mean, there's nothing better than a job search or a salary negotiation or really any type of negotiation to really help you.

Back we go to check yourself, know your strengths and weaknesses and work on your verbal and written communication skills.

I was very disappointed.

I went to buy a used base recently here in Fort Wayne, and I didn't mean to go buy a used base.

I just walked into a gear shop that.

What was that called?

I'm sorry.

Sweetwater Sound.

But I walked into their used gear shop, and I saw this beautiful seafoam green fender 1950s precision base hanging on the wall, and I saw the price, and I thought, that price is probably already pretty good.

And I did some quick, like, you know, do some quick looking online.

Don't I pack my.

Walked up to the guy at the front and said, can you bring this down so I can play it?

And I'd like to hear it.

And then we started.

I was so excited to get to talk money.

And he.

But he just started offering.

He started offering a few discounts, and I thought, there's nothing to negotiate here.

This is a fair price.

He's already offering a discount.

Let's do it, and let's throw in a new case.

But I'm.

I think I'm the only among my friends who's like, you're buying a new car or used car.

Can I come?

I love the psychology of it.

Yeah, well, you don't love it.

Maybe you should reframe that in your head.

Say this with me, you know, like, I love difficult conversations because they make me a stronger, better, more trustworthy and credible human and mentor.

Well, and just to emphasize that point, and we were talking about it, you know, prior to coming on the show, is I on my new book called Staying Relevant Future Proof Yourself in the Age of AI.

I actually have those tools.

In other words, if you're adding AI tools and skill sets to your existing environment so that you're elevating your game, you're amplifying yourself, those become negotiation tools and to actually create work product.

And we were talking about.

Because it's really about, here's what I'm currently doing, here's where I want to be, here's the value.

I see it.

Tell me, what do I have to do to get there?

And now it's put onto their.

In, you know, their corner.

They got to come back to you and go, well, if you can do this, this and this, we can pay you that.

And now you have a new goal.

Now you have an objective.

Now you have something to work towards, and you'll either achieve it or you're not, or you'll go work for somebody who can achieve that.

So I think it's part of having that boldness that you're talking about.

Let's talk about why people may be rationalizing.

That's really number the, you know, number three of the sneaky obstacles.

So finding ways to shield themselves from taking the chance, engaging in conflict, or doing other scary but potentially rewarding actions like that.

How do we overcome the rational.

Why do we rationalize and how do we overcome that?

I love that you're calling them sneaky obstacles.

And I'm rethinking now the title of the book, which is taking risks to overcome the force.

Four hidden challenges.

Communicate with courage.

Taking risks to overcome the four hidden challenges.

But they are sneaky obstacles, 100%.

And the third that I write about is rationalizing the negative.

You've heard this and you've said it.

She's never going to change.

He doesn't care.

They won't.

They won't progress in this way.

I've tried before.

Or they.

I saw my co worker make a suggestion that wasn't heard.

So no.

Or you watch someone who's engaging in potentially like damaging relationship behaviors or damaging personal branding behaviors and you don't say anything.

I think that is maybe the least kind thing to do when you notice something.

If there's a way that you can mix assertiveness with diplomacy to say something, you could be one of the greatest teachers and of great service to that individual that they've ever had.

And I know for me, when I've been given constructive feedback about various weaknesses in my personality and in my skill sets, many times I will try to.

The ego.

My ego will try to distance that and I'll rationalize.

I will, you know, I'll place blame elsewhere.

I'll make a joke of it.

The various defense mechanisms that we all use.

And it might be the 9th or 10th person bringing that to me before I can really hear it.

And then my life changes that day.

And then I have gotten past one of those hidden challenges or sneaky obstacles.

So what we can do about it, it's interesting.

We could have the courage to put some time and faith into visualizing a positive outcome.

And that's whether you're.

Whether you're dropping off the kids to an ex who is usually a jerk, or whether you are selling an idea to your board of directors or selling yourself in a job search, I think it's worth taking a few seconds.

And I can do it pretty fast now.

But over the last 30 years, I can't believe I'm saying that of public speaking and teaching.

Never once have I stepped on a stage or in front of a room or if I was in a refrigerated warehouse, you know, in the break room to do some teaching, whatever, without spending a few moments visualizing what's important to me, which would be, we have some laughter in this room.

We have people lowering their guards a bit to discuss how they might grow or how the team might go.

I always imagine people taking notes because even to this day, I know we're a lot of electronic.

But whether it is on a Laptop or it's on a.

In a notebook.

When somebody takes notes, there's a chance of action.

And I visualize everybody choosing one very specific baby step goal to become a better leader, team member or communicator.

And you know how that's gone?

That's gone great for 30 years.

I always am able to experience most of those things.

Also, I always leave any teaching or coaching engagement thinking I should have said or I said that wrong.

Yeah.

You know, every time I'm always.

There's always a swing and a whiff each time I do what I do.

But I'm hitting a lot more homers by imagining the ball going out of the ballpark.

So if you want to get past rationalizing the negative, you might call it optimism.

Right.

But let's use that.

Optimism really does take.

Take strength, I think, to live that way.

Yeah.

I think you have to go into it with that, you know, the.

I called it envisioning in my day.

My kids, they call it manifesting.

You know, the word.

See that outcome in mind.

Go into that with that outcome and what does that look like?

You know, how does it look, how does it feel?

Those types of things.

What I've learned, when people come give me feedback after an engagement, positive or negative, I just go, oh, thank you, thank you.

Great feedback.

Thank you.

And without defending the position, how much of that do you think though is self projection like this?

I learned this a long time ago when somebody comes up and goes, that was the best ever.

And the same presentation.

This was brilliant.

You've changed my life.

This is great.

I say, well, thank you so much.

What stood out for you?

What?

You know, I'll just ask them that key point and stuff.

But I feel that you're preaching to the choir here.

They're very.

You're saying something that they already innately kind of go with it.

It resonates with them.

If somebody comes up and goes, same presentation, you suck.

That was terrible.

Like, what a thing, whatever.

Oh, well, thank you for the feedback.

What particularly was it?

That was the.

For you.

Okay, thank you.

Don't defend it.

Here's why.

Try and convince them, do whatever.

But I always feel it's where they're coming from.

Because if they're.

It's kind of like you have your fans, they love what you're doing, then you got people who are the detractors.

So I don't take it to heart.

I do listen to it and then you know in your heart whether it's true or not.

And it's like you said it takes me a while, you know, seven or eight times.

If they say it, then it's like, must be true.

I'm hearing it more than once, but I always believe it's self projection.

Hmm.

And I don't know if it is or not, but I'd be curious on your thoughts on that.

Well, first of all, I can't believe that you would get a lot of negative feedback and certainly not in those terms.

But yes, people, people have a dedicated approach to life mindset.

They do.

Many have.

Yep.

Many have been trained from a very young age to look at the negative and others have been trained to try to take by themselves or by others.

Family culture usually.

Yeah, yeah.

And organizational culture to take at least one positive thing away.

I will say that just the asking for feedback is an important, courageous act.

And, and over the last decades, we've never done a training engagement without making sure that we get, you know, at least four questions answered.

Yeah.

Like please rate the materials, please rate the presentation.

What goal do you leave with?

Any other comments?

How could this training be better?

So four or five questions.

And when we assign, we often assign the feedback challenge to coaching clients after I've maybe known them for a couple months so I can feel more secure that they won't use this very powerful tool as a way to harm others or themselves or their reputation.

But it's on our website@gladioconsulting.com tons of free tools.

Because during the pandemic, of course every week we're still instructional designers, we're still making tools.

So let's put them out there and let's put them out there for free.

And the feedback challenge asks you or ask the client to print the one sheet or email it downloadable, e fillable.

And there's one question on it.

What do you sometimes wish I would do differently?

What do you appreciate about how I communicate and what do you sometimes wish I would do differently or better in your opinion?

And then it actually says instructions to client.

When you receive this feedback, written verbal, however the person wants to send it, please stick to this script.

Thanks.

I'll think about this.

You get a five word script, just exactly what you're doing, Michael, and then get the heck out of there so that you can go think about what you've heard before you get defensive or before you return the compliment.

It's about going within.

And I think that's harder for us extroverts.

No, it is.

It's negative feedback.

And for me it was number around the con.

It was more Of a stylistic thing because we're old on Baby Boomer.

Every generation, things have changed and evolved.

The wording, the phrasing, pronouns, the thing.

So it's more of staying contemporary.

And thank goodness my daughters and my wife keep that up to.

Hey, dad, you can't say that anymore.

We don't say that because it's always evolving.

It's always like, I used to have one little bit where I would talk about I'd come home at the end of the day.

Now, in actual fact, so factually, I do 90% of the cooking, maybe 99.

I do the grocery shopping and do the cooking.

And we raised our whole family of seven.

But I used to tell the story where I come home and I'm talking about attitude.

And I was traveling for work, came in at the end of the day, my wife's preparing dinner, blah, blah, blah.

And I'd get hate email.

Why is your wife cooking?

Why is she the one making dinner?

Why is she the.

And I'm going to.

So now I just prep.

I.

Now I just preface it with.

Just like I just did.

Well, just an actual fact.

So on this particular day, my wife was cooking because I was out of.

So I have to qualify it, right?

You just have to qualify it.

But it was good feedback.

It brings it up to speed and a little more timely and contemporary.

But that's.

That's what I mean by adjusting and evolving and being open to evolving.

Because we say things like, you know, I hear friends that will say, they'll talk about the stewardess on the airplane.

And I go, you mean the flight attendant?

Yeah.

And we don't say stewardess anymore.

It's 2026.

It's not.

Yep.

It's not a lady doctor.

Well, I remember our first interview, which was your season two, and you and I were chatting a little bit before we went on, I think, and you were saying, tell me about some of the coaching challenges, etc.

And we got into talking about, like, me coaching males in Fortune 500 or Fortune 200 companies that were older than me and certainly had more discretionary income than I do and that.

And I'm wanting them to take advice from me.

Right.

And I was really kind of carefully stepping around, you know, saying that.

That sometimes guys have a hard time taking advice from women because it's equally true that sometimes guys have trouble taking advice from guys and women from women and women from men.

But it was a story I was telling, and you stopped me and said.

Or you waited until I finished, probably, and then you said, hey, I want to let you know I'm the dad of daughters.

I understand.

You know, basically it was I understand the elements of excellent communication.

I understand how bias works.

You can speak freely to me.

It was quite revolutionary and I remember that from our first conversation.

You put me at ease like that and let me know what you did with that was you let me know that you see us as equals.

You see everyone as having equal potential to be great.

Yep, absolutely.

It was beautiful.

I love it.

With my guy friends have daughters.

Immediately I'm like, hey, hey, now you're going to experience the world in a different way.

It is.

Well, you know, I saw someone the other day.

I I'm fortunate.

I have five daughters and I actually have seven granddaughters.

And it's so I'm surrounded, right?

I'm surrounded.

And they're very good at quick at upgrading my skill levels, you know, and my speech and communication.

So they're far more contemporary than I am.

And I'm still a work in progress.

So I just when I think I got it, you know, the rules change.

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And now back to my conversation with Michelle Gladio.

Let's talk about upgrading our internal self talk.

So thanks for that internal self talk in high pressure times.

In our first conversation in season two, you warned us to watch the quality of our self talk.

Entrepreneurs and executives today are facing unprecedented market noise and burnout.

What's the practical pro move that leaders can use to audit and upgrade their internal narrative?

When the Pressure is at an all time high.

Yeah.

Two things.

Number one, realize that you speak more to yourself than anyone else while you're on the planet.

Right.

Even if you, you're going to be married for 50 years to your best friend and you think you talking every day is a lot with that person, you have so many more dialogues going on with you in your head and much of that information about yourself is inaccurate unfortunately and was placed there or some of it, if not much of it, some of it.

And it was place there by society, by societal labels, by folks who were perhaps threatened by you or who wanted to threaten you.

And it's just not always reliable.

So we want to recognize how often we talk to ourselves, which is constantly.

And sometimes what I'll do is I'll catch myself saying something to myself and I'll think I'm going to repeat that out loud and hold it in a light.

It's for some reason it's often when I'm driving, so I'm driving and I'm talking to myself and I think I'm going to say that out loud.

And I look at, I hold it and think about looking at in a bright light and playing sort of a second voice game.

Just like what I love most about like debate club in high school they would assign us or college, they would assign us a topic and they'd say, you're on this side of it.

I remember many times being like, but I'm not, but I'm not on that side of it.

And they said, good, that would be a good challenge for you.

Gladio, go present the opposite side.

So that's the exercise I do with coaching clients and training participants.

And there's a private part to this which is I'll ask people to document for maybe a week.

When you notice yourself saying something about yourself, some sort of subjective judgment, jot it down, especially if it's unkind.

I'm very interested in what you're saying that you wouldn't say to a good friend.

And I've done that myself.

And with me it's a lot of gladio, you need to get your shit together.

You know, you really effed that up when I didn't or when I was doing my best.

And sometimes I do need to get my shit together and that's a good sign or talk.

But a lot of the things in my list were simply not true.

And until I actually documented them and played a game where I, I gave myself 10ft of distance and thought academically and logically, can I refute this negative statement.

Most I could and some I couldn't.

So the things I'm saying to myself that are negative are things perhaps to choose to work on.

And I can let the rest go.

I can kick that to the curb because it is draining my energy in my waking hours and in my sleeping hours.

So I've seen a client come with tears in her eyes and I said, I'm not asking for your list, although I love, I love a copy of whatever my clients are writing for their confidential client.

But I said, just read me a couple things.

And she got teary eyed and said number one, I'm a bad mom.

And I said, okay, well I'm not a mom of human kids, so talk to me about that.

Are you, do you feed the kid well?

Does he or she have social time?

Do you care about their education?

Do you make time for them to develop relationships?

Do you keep them safe?

Just trying to think of good parent stuff.

She's looking more annoyed at me.

She's yes, yes, of course, of course.

And I said, well, I'm sorry, I'm at a loss, you know, how are you not a good mom or good parent?

And it was about all of the time in the last few months she had been spending with from the east coast with west coast clients.

So her 5 to 8pm was a lot of video meetings and things like that and she was missing the kids and they were missing her.

So I said but we've determined you're not a bad mom.

Cross it out.

That was a good feeling to see her do that and then write something more logical, more true.

And she wrote, I'm a good mom who's too busy in the evenings and I need to figure out my schedule.

That's the fact, not the story.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Then there are other people who are highly self affirmed and we do a lot of personality assessments at my company and they're one of the rulers we get to see is in your definition of success, how much of it comes from others and how much of it comes from self.

So I'm coaching a lot of people who are highly other affirmed.

In fact more people in the last several years who are highly other affirmed more so than self affirmed, interestingly.

And those folks need to be coached to set their own definition of success because the people around them might be wrong, might be jealous, might not know how to give feedback, might not care, might be negative as a life choice.

Right?

And then the folks who are highly self affirmed need some coaching in how to Invite the feedback and maybe, maybe, just maybe you're not as great at that as you think you are.

Until you check in with some people in a vulnerable way, which is where real strength lives.

And I think that's why various personalities and professions, we'll just say really poo poo vulnerability.

I think it's because they don't want to step towards it and even look at it, which I understand.

Well, you look at our, even our, in our political environment, our current political environment with our leaders like from the top down and I don't care what team you're on, but if we look at the style of communication, if we look at the lack of evolving, you know, we have those that are still that command and control, they're always right, they never apologize, they can't, they never show weakness, always showed strength.

And that goes right across the board.

I mean we, we see it a lot with our elected leaders and then versus the modern leader that is kind of like that Lee Iacocca, the Jack Welch, you know, the G. Those were the, that was that time, that was that era.

And today can you think of a modern day leader from a major corporation?

Well, ones that come to or like Apple or you know, come where they're very much into their people.

They have their teams, their open communication.

It's not just command and control.

Do this or else there is consensus.

It's, it's.

How are you feeling about this?

They.

Authenticity, vulnerability.

We're starting to see all of that.

Is there any other examples that come to your mind of people who in your mind do it, how we ought to be doing it or good models or role models?

Yes.

Two thoughts there.

When you speak about past generations and their ability to express and communicate and they were so limited, many were so limited because we're growing as humans.

I think of my dad, Dab Glad who he and all his brothers fought in World War II and he flew missions.

He was a radar operator flying missions over Germany, many missions.

And he went over as a 17 year old, you know, ended up being an electrical engineer by trade then for 40 years here in Fort Wayne.

But he had a deep reserve of love and heart and praise was hard to get from him.

It was more like it's and as a write about in my book Communicate with Courage, it was a lot of like if I was heading back to Purdue and giving him a kiss on the cheek goodbye when I was 17 or 18, you know, he'd be like keep your nose clean, Shelley.

Yeah, I just, that was like.

And my mom would sort of elbow me and be like, and that means I love you.

And that was very helpful.

So what someone projects isn't always what they feel.

And then for a current day leader, it's Ari Weinswig from Zingerman's Community of Businesses in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

He was one of the founders along with his partner Paul and the Zingerman's Deli in the 1980s.

And that has now grown to.

Gosh, it's in the book.

I do, I do pay homage to their amazing organizational culture in the book.

But it's probably about a dozen businesses, approximately, I'm going to guess, seven to 800 employees.

And at every step of the way they've thought about how can we invite voices that normally would not be heard because they don't have the positional power and equalize some of that.

So people are taking responsibility for delighting guests and doing the right thing by customer service and selling.

Yes, but in an ethical way.

And I go to eat there.

What is that about a two, two and a half hour drive?

If somebody says, where do you want to go for your birthday dinner?

I want to go to Ann Arbor, Michigan.

I want to go to a Zingerman's restaurant because I can observe it from the host or hostess stand all the way through the experience of the meal.

And you can find this at all of their businesses.

And it's a great testament how just a couple guys created a culture that is pursued and known the world over, but they refuse to franchise and they intend to keep the business in sort of a trust, a perpetual trust, so that it continues to benefit the community that they've chosen.

And I was so blessed.

One of the highlights of my year this year was I got to be there in June doing a book workshop and nobody knows me in Ann Arbor.

I don't have many clients, et cetera.

But Ari thought the book was worth featuring and came to that event.

And I walked into the Zingerman's Roadhouse restaurant and there are his.

Many of his wonderful pamphlets about business, talking about dignity in business, talking about why it's important to do effective staff orientations, why he still does them himself next to my book.

And I thought all of the work, you know how much work it is to.

To write a book and get it.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I'm going to get emotional thinking about it, but that was a really special night for me.

And it was, it was a very small room.

It was like 20 people.

And the important thing is if you're talking to 20 or 2000.

How can you touch and improve the lives of everybody that you're spending time with?

Might be your last day to do so.

We don't know.

Right.

Well and I think, I think it's.

And what you're talking about too is there's that awareness.

You know, one of the things I talk about in the book, one of the chapters is, or the new book is emotional intelligence.

EQ is the new mba.

Particularly with AI because when we see what happens when we have low, we're not bringing emotional quotient into the picture and being awareness and self aware and we just want to be surrounded by people who tell us what we want to hear.

We don't get the feedback we don't get and we get bad decisions and we get bad outcomes.

Let's talk about intent versus impact in digital and AI communications because it's certainly evolving.

One of the most quoted takeaways from your last visit was just because you say it with good intention doesn't mean the impact can't be harmful.

So see we've got all these great quotes from you.

With leaders now leaning heavily on quick text, concise emails and even AI drafting, how can we bridge the gap between good intent and hurtful impact?

Well, I'll tell you that I have sent a few emails to clients responding to their email to me recently and I've written back and said okay, you know, here's what I think for the workshop and who to include or whatever.

And by the way, that was an awesome email.

We teach business writing and we teach it pretty often like half day or one hour workshop.

That's excellent.

Could I, and I will ask, can I use that as an example in our workbook?

And they write back and say well it was AI and I thought yeah.

So I think what's important is if we're going to ask for help from a human or from a computer, that we do our due diligence and we ensure that we have done our fact checking.

And then we also think about how would I feel to receive that.

That's something I'm on my, I'm often I would say on my, I give feedback to my team members that write our personality assessment insights reports.

So we get, yeah, we buy the assessment and then we read it and then we write people a two page, one to two page summary for those who maybe don't want to or don't have time to read 15 pages about themselves.

And I will make a big deal out of you just said in conflict you avoid that, that, that like hold up, you have not met this person and I'm just getting to know this person.

So you can't tell them via technology what they or via an assessment what they actually do in real life.

So you could say something like, based on your answers to our survey, it's likely that you try to avoid in difficult conversations and might be able to grow from seeking more competition and collaboration.

Every word in some communications matters and it's absolutely everywhere that people are going.

Oh sweet, good.

I just got that in a package, you know from it's happening in the book publishing industry, it's happening in college classrooms but you don't want your name attached to that.

So as that kind of quick acceptance of something that you didn't create.

So you know, I think it has to do with personal and professional branding and your credibility is a long term game.

What do you think though?

I think your answer will be better than mine.

Could you answer this?

No, it's, it's a good, yeah, it's a good answer for me on the intake because I've had to really learn.

This one is say this, but this is how it's impacted and I've experienced it.

So it's asking for that feedback.

When it comes to using AI tools for generative communication, I believe that it's about 80% there.

Like I believe in staying relevant and up to date and it makes us better writers, communicator ideas but don't just take anything that comes out raw.

So if I was going to use an AI tool and I for writing, I think like Claude's a great one.

You know, a lot of people use chat GPT, whatever it is, but assume it's 80% there in structure and then the 20% needs you, it needs your personal touch, it needs your insight.

If it's just a copy and paste thing, well then who knows and you might get a result, an impact that you're not anticipating.

So to me you can also ask for that feedback.

Hey, how did that come across to you?

How did that, how did that land.

Exactly and care about them.

And I think it's really about, you know, is this good enough?

How do I make it better?

And actually that's your kind of last obstacle really that I wanted to finish with is settling, stopping at good enough instead of striving towards better interactions.

Interactions in our chats, our one on ones listening being chiring instead of surefoot about, you know, how we feel about something, asking questions because it is changing and I'm finding the answers are in eq A lot like that.

Human to human.

It's really kind of there.

Like we.

Can you believe we didn't have that term operationally defined?

We didn't even have a term until like the 1990s.

Yeah, it's emotional intelligence.

No, it's a.

And it's a new.

And it's.

And I think that is, like I say, the new MBA and in person, because there's things that, for instance, AI can't do.

It can't be empathetic.

Right.

It's never had.

It's.

You can write a poem and make your.

You cry, but it's never had its heart broken.

It can't be accountable.

It can't be responsible.

It can't.

It can.

Somebody always has to be on top of this to make sure it's in good shape.

But it can be flattering.

It can be flattering because I'll ask a question that will say, oh, that's such a good question, Michelle, based on your knowledge of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it gives me a bunch of compliments.

And I'm thinking, I'm just looking up this piece of information.

How did it get so flattering so fast?

I think it wants me to come back.

Yeah, I think it's hallucinating.

And so what I do is I tell it, be critical.

You're the, you know, you're the number one.

For instance, when we do our podcast, we use for prep.

I want you to be critical.

I want 10 insightful questions for Michelle that we can ask that will cause our audience and blah, blah.

Or when I wrote the book, you know, and I submitted it, we went through proofing, checking, check for format error, check for this, check for that.

Is there anything inconsistent that's inconsistent in the thinking, but be critical, you won't hurt my feelings.

Tell it that and say, hey, hey, I want to communicate.

Or.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's prompting of a foe who does not, you know, who, whatever, doesn't think we should get this kind contract and explain to me why they might feel that way.

Great.

Well, I'll give you an example.

You know, as we were talked earlier, I've got my new book that's coming out in September 15th, launch date.

Sorry for the cheap little plug there, but no.

And where I want to get this book as soon as possible.

Everywhere books are sold.

What's everywhere?

Just like yours.

Everywhere, books are sold, the whole bit.

But what I did is I said for our media tour and for our media interviews, I said, you're a media critic, you're pro and against.

I want you to come up with questions at least 10 or 20 that I'm going to be asked from a negative perspective that are challenging my assumptions that are challenging.

And what you would recommend how I respond it and weave it in.

Because when you like at commencement speeches this year, if you brought up AI, you got booed off the stage.

And because the young people are going, so I put that in there.

How do I answer that question without doing it?

Because young people think government should be controlling some of this.

Well, the answer is yes, I'm in agreement that they should.

They should create the rules of the road.

But you still have to learn to drive the car.

It's here.

That's a very analogy.

Right.

And so I use that as to.

Okay, give me act on the other side of it.

So it's a point of your debate and you're talking.

I want you to take the opposite position of me.

I'm going to position a new proposal to my boss.

I'm going to talk to my superior about this.

I want to know all the possible comebacks that they could say in a negative way.

And then how can I respond to those comebacks and put it in normal language, humanistic, you know, dialogue.

It'll come back with both sides of that argument and it's phenomenal for that.

So to me, those are the.

Yeah.

So it helps in our communication.

We used to draw pictures on cliffs and walls and petroglyphs and how we design.

And then.

Yeah.

And we had to.

So the whole thing and the.

The debate game with AI or the generate some potential objections to the sale with AI you did say it's coming back with all the potential objections.

It's actually not because whoever's in the room.

So it's with many.

It's coming back with many potential objections that you can prepare to be the emotionally preferred provider.

Right.

Good language by thinking through.

But you're still going to have that one person who throws you a curveball that you don't know how to answer.

And so we can't fake, you know, AI will only allow you to fake knowledge for so long and then depth of knowledge becomes evident.

It becomes evident.

And that's why you see us as leaders as, as growing communicators.

It's always, almost, almost always okay to say, I need time to think about that.

I've been put on the spot so many times in different rooms.

And when I was in my 20s and 30s, my goal was never have to say I don't know.

And now I'm more quick to say interesting.

And I've got a research team and we'll look into that and we will, of course, truly get back to you.

I don't know.

Here's some adjacent thoughts.

And by the way, who else in this room has some subject matter expertise or an idea and then we let somebody else's light shine.

Yeah, exactly.

No, it's the way to do it.

The book is called Communicate with Courage.

Taking Risks to Overcome the four Hidden Challenges Available where you get your books.

Gladio Consulting.

We'll put everything in the show, notes for you and they'll be able to find you.

They can go take the assessment.

Michelle, thank you so much for being our guest today.

Great to see you again.

Great to see you again.

Yeah, no, we'll definitely have another time to do this, so thanks for keeping us current and up to date and appreciate sharing your insights.

You bet.

As you are listening to this episode, what is one idea that you've heard that's caught your attention and why does it matter so much to you?

And who is one person you can share that with either sharing this episode or just sharing that insight that occurred to you while you were listening?

Perhaps it is testing your assumptions by listening rather than talking to win.

Or maybe it's asking others for candid feedback on how you can improve your communication.

Thank you for listening, for learning, and for investing in yourself so that you can become the best version of you.

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Goodbye.