Fred Joyal - From Under-Confident to Charismatic: Your Roadmap to Build Boldness

In 3, 2, 1.

Welcome back to Becoming Preferred, the podcast where we focus on the mindset and strategies that help you become preferred in the markets you serve.

Our guest today has built a legacy on that very concept.

For over 30 years.

He co founded and grew 1-800-doistist, a company that generated over $1 billion in revenue generated by solving a simple, painful customer problem.

He's an expert in making a brand remarkable.

But here's the kicker.

He spent the last decade distilling that business success into a personal superpower that anyone can learn.

Fred Joyel is the Wall Street Journal best selling author of Super Bold.

From Underconfident to charismatic in 90 days.

Fred has the rare experience of both conquering a niche industry and teaching the mindset to repeat that process.

Get ready to learn how to inject boldness into your business, your team and your life.

Join me now for my conversation with Fred Joyell.

Well, hey Fred, welcome to the program.

We're delighted to have you, Mike.

I'm excited to be here and looking forward to plumbing the idea of boldness with you.

I'm excited about that.

I've been doing professional selling and training and coaching and speaking for over 30 years and I've never really identified that character trait.

And as one that's really essential and particularly in today's world, more than ever.

And about being bold, I just thought, yeah, you just be bold.

You have to do that.

But I didn't realize there was obstacles to that.

People have a hard time getting there, particularly if you're maybe on the introverted side.

So we're going to explore and unpack all of that.

I'm really excited about that.

I know you've got some great insights to share, but Fred, our listeners always like to go back and say, how did Fred become Fred?

You're back in high school.

You're deciding what you want to be when you grow up.

Let's start there and work our way up to where we are today.

So I didn't really know what I wanted to do.

I just knew I liked writing and so that's where I ended up.

It took me eight years to finish college.

I had to have my vagabond gap years of like about four years in between two different colleges.

And then I went into creative writing when I went back to college and that's when I found the draw was that.

But I couldn't figure out how to make money.

And so I ended up moving to California, got some low end job.

But I got introduced to the advertising world by a friend of Mine, who was a storyboard artist.

I walked in the agency, I went, oh, these are my people.

This is what I've been looking for.

I could do this.

I wasn't a particularly good employee because I wasn't passionate about what I was doing.

And I met the general manager and he said, well, I'm not going to give you a job because you don't know how to write advertising.

You know how to write, but you don't know how to write this.

And so there was a night school that was taught by creative directors, working creative directors.

And I went to that for six months, and that's where I learned the specifics of advertising writing.

And that changed everything.

I went in a job interview, got the first interview, I went on and became a copywriter and worked my way up fairly quickly to creative director, mostly because I had so many ridiculous jobs over the years that I understood all different businesses and I understood that the advertising was supposed to get them customers, not just be funny or entertaining.

It had to connect with a cash register at some point.

Right.

And that led to starting my own business because I loved advertising.

Didn't like the career arc too much, which falls off a cliff at 50 in most careers.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was seeing that happen to guys, you know, this is in the 80s, and they were making 250, 300 grand.

They get laid off, they couldn't get a job, they couldn't get 80 grand.

And meanwhile, two kids in college in a big house, and, you know, and they're in trouble.

So I thought, I can't do this to myself.

So a friend of mine had this phone number, 800 dentists.

And he just hooked it up to his house because he wasn't particularly ambitious.

But he saw me working in advertising.

He said, I think you could turn this into a business.

So I got together with another friend of mine and we just beat the streets, literally door to door.

It's hilarious to think about.

Now, we had radio spots that I had written and recorded, and we would go to these dentist's office and I would play the radio spots on this cassette player and say, this is what we're going to do.

We'll give you all the patients that come in into your zip code.

And it took six months just to find the first 20 guys in LA, but we got 50 phone calls the first day.

It was that, holy crap moment.

Like, this might actually work.

What we're saying to doctors might actually be true and surprise.

And because you want that when you're pitching something to actually be True.

And, and then we just kept adding doctors and eventually adding cities.

And it became the largest dentist referral service in the country.

We were getting, you know, five, six thousand calls a day.

We ramped the business to almost $50 million in revenue a year.

In aggregate, over a billion dollars in revenue.

It's over the 27 years I ran it and we just, we had a great culture because my partner and I, we wanted a place where we wanted to go every day.

And the greatest indicator of that was my last month at work.

So we eventually sold the business.

We celebrated three 25 year employees.

And so these.

We had only been in business 28 years at that point.

These people had given me their entire adult lives.

And that made me so proud.

Because when you create a great culture, the employees sustain it, they defend it.

Yeah, well, 30 years, 1, 800 dentists, he generated over a billion dollars in revenue.

So a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs who learn and they dream of that kind of scale.

What was the single most critical marketing decision that you made that allowed you to dominate that niche and achieve that remarkable long term growth?

It went to television advertising.

And the profitability of the business was because we placed the advertising ourselves.

Because I had worked in an ad agency and I saw how they waste the client's money because the client, we had Miller beer, the client didn't care, they just spend my money.

That was what they were.

So it was whoever gave the best perks to the media buyers.

So I knew I had to make the phone ring.

So we had all of these tracking systems that we created because of the 800 number.

It wasn't like we could have individual numbers that say, oh, this ad works better than that ad and this city's generating better leads.

And that there were a lot more challenges, but I had smart people figuring their way around it.

But we created what was essentially like an algorithm that would say this new ad is doing like 7% better than the old ad or 6% worse.

And we knew that we had a 90 day trail on the effectiveness of the ad, which was the beauty of this phone number.

We had a number that was completely memorable.

That was exactly what we did.

And that was just the.

So the best thing about it was that.

And then we coupled it with a live call center.

We gave this empathetic voice on the phone to people who were calling about something.

They weren't calling to get phone service or something like that.

People had a tremendous apprehension about choosing a dentist.

And so that was the emotional niche that we fit into.

And the problem we solved was that a lot of people have as much or more anxiety about picking a dentist than actually going.

Now, you wouldn't conclude that you go, everybody doesn't want to go to the dentist.

They hate that idea and they are anxious about it.

But when you have to pick somebody and you have no idea how to evaluate them, there's a lot of anxiety in that.

And we solved it because we were like Yelp and Google before they existed.

But we had a real human being that would reassure the people.

We were the first impression of the practice.

So that was the real marketing power.

We were smart about the advertising, but the marketing side was to create that first impression.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So you go from there to tastes great, less filling, and then of course, evolve from there.

I remember those ads.

Let's talk about and shift just for a little bit about your book, Everything is Marketing because you speak and you just mentioned it to the fundamental truth that marketing goes beyond advertising.

How do you advise business owners today to shift their focus from transactional marketing, say getting the sale, to actually creating a remarkable experience that generates that organic long term preference?

And so that's what I realized from working with so many dentists.

And I saw all degrees of success.

I saw guys making $2 million a year and guys hanging by their fingernails.

And a lot of times the guys who were barely getting by were tremendous practitioners clinically, but they didn't know how to create a patient experience.

And again, with any business, you gotta identify the problem.

The problem dentists have is people have no way of assessing their clinical skills.

So they go by everything else.

And that's why the title of my first book was Everything is Marketing.

Is that everything that the patient experiences, everything they taste, tasted, touched, heard, smell, saw.

Yeah.

Either increased or decreased the trust that they had in the dentist.

Because trust is very subjective for people.

Yeah.

And how they valued what they were getting from the dentist.

And that's these principles apply to everything, especially now.

And so what were all of these subliminal subjective cues that you create to make the person feel safe, feel valued, feel cared for?

Because a lot of healthcare, they make you feel not valued at all.

You're an insurance card.

Yeah.

Prior to our program, we were talking about an experience I had with my dentist.

And what was interesting was when I remember when I was getting my wisdom teeth taken out, we ended up becoming lifelong buddies.

Is as I'm leaning back in the chair, he's got all pictures of his kids and family photos up on the roof.

And of course then they all have TVs things, but it really personalized that experience.

You know, when you talk about the experience is more important than ever.

I think so too.

I talk about Starbucks.

Starbucks, you know, they employ all five senses in their offering.

Sight, sound, smell, feel, taste.

You walk into a Starbucks, lighting looks good, smells good, whether you like coffee.

I wish it actually tasted like it smells, but it tastes good.

Whatever you're having.

That macchiato feels good, right?

Sounds good.

You can buy the music that's playing.

So the, the lesson for us and as business owners, the more senses you can employ in the experience, the better the experience.

And it, it sounds like you were a forerunner to that.

So you were kind of that leading edge.

Well, let's talk about your latest bestseller, Super Bold.

So for our listeners may be technically brilliant, but they struggle with pitching, networking, delegating.

What's the core misconception they hold about boldness and what is the first practical step they can take to embrace the super bold mindset?

So people think, oh, they'll say this all the time, well, I would be bolder if I were more confident.

And they have that wrong.

It's actually because they think that it takes confidence to be bold.

What it takes to be bold is willingness to be uncomfortable and to fail and to act when you're not confident.

What builds your confidence is actually doing bold things when you're not confident, when you're uncomfortable.

And you can build boldness just like a muscle by sort of call it titrating to tolerance, to use a medical term.

Yeah, you do something that's uncomfortable, but the stakes are really low.

So like smiling at strangers.

One of the things I tell people, because my book is full of exercise that are boldness exercises when the outcome doesn't matter that much.

And you say, wow, that went really well.

I smiled at 10 people today and seven smiled back.

And you don't worry about the three that didn't because you stop taking it on.

It's like it's not a personal rejection.

You have no idea what that person's days.

Maybe they don't smile at anybody.

Yeah.

You know, so it's when you understand that you can build your boldness and that's what expands your confidence so that you are bold when it does matter.

It becomes your reflex to be bold, to step up, to speak up, to dial the phone, to walk up to that person and introduce yourself, to make a real human connection without having to dive into sales or prospecting mode.

Because that's the way to really prospect is to lose the agenda completely.

Yeah.

And just make a huge connection.

We've always been told you build your confidence and fake it till you make it.

So is that kind of this true?

It seems like that might be the same process for when it comes to boldness is.

Just do it.

What's the worst possible outcome?

Why do we have that resistance in the first place?

Is that an ego thing in your mind?

Is it just fear of failure?

Why is it entrenched?

Because it's.

Everyone really faces it.

Yeah.

We fear making mistakes.

We fear failure.

We fear embarrassment.

We fear rejection.

And what bold people have learned is that most of the time, other people's opinion of you is meaningless and a waste of your energy and an impediment to your success.

They limit the number of people whose opinions really matter.

They don't worry about being judged by people.

They don't register embarrassment as a bad thing.

They say, embarrassment, That's a choice.

I could choose to be embarrassed or laugh it off, because we're all trying to be perfect, which is a physical and human impossibility.

Yeah.

But we don't want to look imperfect, which is.

It's just ridiculous.

But this is the socialization, you know, particularly that happens, I think, in high school.

I think, like, you care about what everybody.

You think they're all thinking about you.

They all see that pimple on your forehead.

No, they don't.

You're the only one thinking about that pimple all day, you know, or what that bully just said to you or whatever.

And so the sooner you let go of that and realize rejection's a choice, embarrassment's a choice.

Being judged or critiqued by somebody, how you take that on, how you process that, is entirely optional.

You don't have to take it on.

And once you stop taking it on, life gets better.

Good things come to you.

And the bolder you are, the more you discover unexpected things.

I mean, the perfect example is I'm trying to help my nephew, who is just turning 18, to become bolder.

And I just took him to a concert that he really wanted to go to, and we were sitting in our seats, and I start to see that people are just going down the aisle and going up to the stage.

So he would have never done that on his own.

So I just nudge him, and I say, let's go.

We're going up front.

Not only do we get all the way up front at the end, the performer fist bumps everybody in the front row who.

Aligning the stage.

So my nephew went from watching up in, you know, Row J.

To seeing the guy perform so close he could touch him, and then fist bumping this guy that he really admires as all these unexpectedly wonderful things happen because you just said, yes, I'll go down.

Because he could have been shy enough to say, no, no, no, no, I'm not going up there for no reason at all.

He would have stopped himself.

Because that's what we do.

We stop ourselves from enjoying it.

What's funny is, as you say this, I'm bold in most areas of my life, but I still know areas, and I want to address this because I'm curious about for yourself, that I still am, let's just say chicken about it.

In other words, it's still.

You want to sing karaoke?

That's it.

I'm trying to.

You need my help so that you can sing karaoke?

Is that it?

Yeah, it's.

While you did stand up comedy.

See that, that sounds brutal to me, right?

And just to do it.

And yet I use humor in my programs and my keynotes and I know I can get an audience to laugh, but just that, that scares me.

Even books.

Years ago, we started a publishing company over 25 years ago.

My mother was an author.

And, you know, I didn't want to face the rejection.

I didn't want to see my books in the remainder bin.

So we created our own publishing company and did quite well.

I was very successful with it, but I've always been scared to subject it to that critique, if you will.

And so I already know people are gonna like it, some are gonna hate it, some think it's garbage.

You know, I have a new project coming out in a few months and it's like, you know, I'm a little nervous about it, but I still wrestle with that boldness.

Are there things where you have to remind yourself of your own formulas?

Because when it comes to confidence, you, you know, you've cracked the code.

You've got a formula, you've got a process for whether it's cold calling, whether it's.

Whatever it is, singing karaoke and publicly.

Do you still wrestle with things from time to time because you are self described introvert.

But are there things where I need to coach myself on this one?

Because yeah, I'm chickening myself.

Oh, if I find myself hesitating on something or saying, I don't know if I want to do that, that's a clue for me now that maybe I want this.

And this is what people do.

This is the irrational track that they're on, is they want something.

So Badly.

That they don't do it because they don't want to fail.

Which guarantees the failure.

Yeah, interesting.

So people say, when do you know you've really gotten as bold as you want to be?

It's always going to expand.

I said, it's when this happens, the transformation is this.

When trying and failing feels better than not trying.

Brilliant.

Because not trying guarantees a regret.

Yeah, trying and failing.

I tried.

It didn't work out.

Like I thought, maybe I just need to learn something or, geez, hey, I took a swing at it, you know, I pitched this crazy big client that was way out of my league, but I had a conversation with him, and then he said, yeah, I'm not really interested, but I tried.

Yeah.

Instead of stop it, because nobody stops us more than we do.

That's when I'm catch myself stopping myself.

I go, what's going on, Fred?

What is it?

What do you really want?

And maybe I don't really want anything, but most of the time I start to dig and I go, yeah, you're stopping yourself.

Is there something.

Is there something you're comfortable sharing with us where you're on the fence there for a little bit?

And then going, yeah, I did it anyway.

I still did what I did.

And maybe I failed initially, but, hey, here was the outcome.

Yeah.

The biggest example of it for me was I was with a group of business people, and we had rented one of Richard Branson's islands in the Virgin Islands.

And sometimes he lives on a different island.

Sometimes he comes over if his wife is out of town, he comes and he hangs around with the business people.

Sometimes he doesn't.

And he happened to be there when we were there on the island.

The first day I rupture my Achilles tendon playing tennis, and I'm just sitting there.

A surgeon tells me, you might as well stay the rest of the vacation.

It's not going to heal itself.

We'll fix it when you get back to la.

So I'm sitting there watching other people play tennis with my leg up, and Richard comes over to me and he says, oh, this is such a bother that this has happened to you.

Do you play chess just like him?

Yeah.

And the cr.

I'm going like, oh, crap.

I haven't played chess in 40 years.

And I know he loves it, but he's going to.

He's going to beat me in five moves.

It's going to be humiliating.

He's going to.

He's going to say, I thought you said you could play chess.

But I said yes, and he waves somebody over and brings a chessboard over.

And so we play.

And I'm playing such a disorienting game to him because I'm remembering how to play that I've left all these defenses.

He's on full attack, and all of a sudden I go, that's check.

Actually, it's checkmate.

And he looks down at the board and he just looks up at me.

Calls me the C word.

Yeah.

And immediately sets the board up to play again.

And then the rest of the week he comes looking for me to play so he can berate me for how slow I'm moving.

But we talked about all sorts of stuff.

He loved to talk politics.

People always want to interview him and ask for money and stuff.

I just talk to him like a regular person.

Yeah.

But I had a split second to say yes or no to Richard.

Regret that would have been to drag around because you would have been okay and walked away.

Yeah.

You talk about that as.

Don't approach them as a worshiper.

Approach them with.

As a respectful peer seeking a unique perspective or a problem that maybe you both care about.

And when I look back, it's funny because when I was back and so I was never a jock in high school and the guys want to go out with pretty girls and I don't know, I just learned real early and in college that the pretty girls just don't get asked out out because the guys were scared to do that.

So the first thing I did is I started asking the prettiest girls out and they were saying yes.

And then when pretty girls see with another pretty girl, it's kind of like that George Costanza episode inside Fold where he's got a picture of a model in his wallet.

They oh, he's obviously got something.

If she's going out with them, he must be a good guy.

So I dated pretty girls and today voice swipe like it's embarrassing to be a man in today's world.

They don't have the boldness to actually start a conversation and do that.

Or if I met celebrities, I never approach them from a word.

I just talked to them like human beings.

And they'll engage with you and they actually appreciate it and respect it.

No.

That's interesting.

That's a good story.

Yeah.

Called the Power of Humility.

The humble brag.

I think it's referred to so excellent.

Are you tired of chasing leads and ready to start effortlessly attracting more high value clients?

Introducing Rainmaker Lead Gen, the ultimate sales engagement and client acquisition platform that takes the stress out of outreach.

With Rainmaker Lead Gen, you can easily identify, engage, educate and convert your ideal prospects into loyal clients.

Our industry leading automation and email sequencing empowers you to reach more ideal clients, accelerate the sales cycle and close more business.

Imagine authentically engaging with your prospects while the platform handles the heavy lifting.

Say goodbye to the endless hustle and embrace a more efficient, effective approach to business development.

Ready to witness the magic?

Book a 20 minute demo today and see how Rainmaker Lead Gen can revolutionize and level up your client acquisition game.

There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Don't miss out on this opportunity to supercharge your client acquisition process.

Visit rainmakerdigitalsolutions.com or check out the link in the show notes to book your demo Rainmaker Lead Gen Spend less time hunting for your ideal clients and more time having high value sales conversations with your ideal clients.

And now back to my conversation with Fred Joyel.

Let's talk about bringing it into a work environment and confidence.

Are there some exercises like you talk about prospecting and when I read that the first story came to my mind is when I started my speaking training career and it was back prior to PCs and computers like they just weren't a thing.

And we used to use a prospect list where we would use a shoebox with we went through 31 and January through December we'd have 90 days worth.

And I remember getting everything done.

I started my business, I had it all incorporated, I had the business cards, everything was done perfect and I kept procrastinating making the first phone call and then one day I was just done everything and I'm sitting in my office and I'm just looking at the phone and it's not ringing.

And we had yellow pages back then young audience, you'll have to google what that looks like and casset recorders just to get a frame of reference here and just teasing but I remember looking at this phone, nothing.

And so I finally after two hours literally I opened up the phone book and I just started making phone calls.

By the end of the day I had six meetings.

I've never looked back and that once I got past that hurdle so it's really making that attempt and being okay to fail.

Read recently of one gentleman wrote a book on just that mindset and it goes hand in hand with what you're talking about.

Do a hundred times, do a hundred of them and then judge it.

In other words if you do 10 and you make 10, nobody's getting, you know, no meetings, 20, 30, 40 do 100 and then judge it.

And he maintains basically in his, his model.

Hey, if you do 100 of these, make 100 of these requests, 100 bold attempts, you're going to get something and then that will start that whole process because we're building the boldness, we're building the confidence.

Are there any other old boldness reps?

You're doing the reps because at 5 or 10 you can still have all this reluctance and apprehension and Jesus, what if they curse at me or they hang up on me by 100 you say, yeah, you inured to it?

You like, you go, yeah, they hung up on me.

I'm going to dial again.

Yeah, yeah, I'm closer.

It's the one.

Even remember your name?

Yeah, yeah, they won't even remember your name.

Now.

You're transitioning in your career now.

So you've gone from writer, you put your writing out there, you've done your marketing, you're transitioning now into public speaking.

And I know you've done a lot of that already, but you're kind of moving that back into.

Because just when you think you're out of the consulting world, I know companies bring you back in again.

For many entrepreneurs, though, public speaking's a terrifying necessity for sales and scaling.

But it's essential and it's getting even more essential, I think.

In the world of AI.

What's your best piece of advice for turning that fear of speaking into a super bold asset that drives business growth?

So one of the principles that I talk about in my book is the principle of dosage.

When you're building your boldness muscle, you have to control the intensity of it.

So you have to say, oh, well, if I want to be good at speaking.

Part one, expect to suck.

I wasn't great the first time I was up.

You weren't great the first time you were up.

Yeah.

And I've done stand up comedy and improv comedy.

Guess what?

I didn't kill my first stand up set.

But my book is all about the principles of how you learn to do improv comedy.

Because people say, how does somebody walk up on stage and create a scene from a suggestion with nothing?

And I'd say they didn't start that way.

Improv comedy starts non verbally in the training.

You just move and you make expressions.

So it's like just where if you're going to learn to do public speaking, do those things where there's no stakes involved.

Go sing karaoke, go do an open mic, write some dumb jokes and go do an Open mic somewhere, expecting to suck.

If you go, I am not going to do well at this.

That's my expectation.

It changes it for you.

Then you go to Toastmasters, which is the most supportive thing you could possibly get to train you to get better.

We worry about being in front of people because we think, oh, I'm going to be nervous.

My memory is going to go, yep.

And what happens is if you do it right, you just go, I've completely lost where I am in this talk.

Does anybody know where I was going with this?

As soon as you do that, you become a human being and somebody in the audience knows exactly where you were and they yell it out and you go, oh, yeah, yeah, now I know.

Thank you.

And away you go.

Because you chose not to.

Oh, I'm so humiliated because I didn't remember.

We all have lapses of memory.

And you talked about.

You just said this.

We need to get better and better at being in front of people because AI is going to do everything else.

Human connection is going to become your most powerful future proofing tool.

And here's the other thing.

Get in front of a friendly audience, a small audience, and what happens, you work with 10 or 15 people, they're supportive of you.

I did stand, end up in a room so small, like I could take a drink from the person in the front rows.

Drink.

You know, there's like nine people sitting in this little bar inside a restaurant, but you're having a conversation and then you just all of a sudden say, wow, it's the same thing.

When I'm in front of a thousand people, I'm just having a conversation.

You can flip it, but you got to start small, you got to expand it.

And please don't expect to be perfect.

Expect to be the opposite.

Say, look, I'm going to go up and blow this.

Walk on stage with your fly down on purpose and just look down and go, hmm, in normal situations, this would be embarrassing.

And then you turn around and zip up and all of a sudden the people are like, look at this guy, he's crazy.

He didn't bother him that his fly was down.

Yes.

And as you would say from an improv point of view, realize that the fear comes from an obsession with perfection and self image.

So we got to shift from thinking, how will I look?

And start thinking, what solution am I delivering?

What's our focus?

Start delivering.

Just be authentically honest.

And most people can see through and do the authenticity and see whether you're being authentic or not.

I like what you were saying about AI, I've got a new book coming out called Staying Relevant in the Age of AI and I talk about you versus iq and yeah, the AI can out think us for sure, but it can't out feel us.

It doesn't know those nuances as humans.

And that's where we need to focus on our strengths.

And so I think you've capped captured it and I think the younger generations like in our.

Did you have a paper route?

When you were starting off, did you have a paper.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I interview a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of very successful ones had paper routes and we had to go knock on the door, deliver the paper.

Then we had to go collect.

People don't realize this.

We had to go collect $2 and 60 cents from Mrs. Johnson and knock on her door three times because she'd never be home and Christmas time and everything else.

But it's that I think helped with the boldness.

I think that's what forced us.

Yeah.

Because we had to run the whole business.

Yeah.

And I learned at a really early age.

So that works.

Let's move back into marketing.

Let's look at where marketing is today.

And you've built a national market brand in the pre digital error.

How do you see those principles of marketing evolving today?

And is there any core principles that you would like 1,800dentists in the playbook that is more relevant than ever in our fragmented social media and content landscape?

I think now, and I'm not the first person to introduce this, but boldness is such an essential component of it.

Yeah.

You have to focus on building your personal brand.

You have to authentically decide who you are and what you want to present the world and then boldly present that consistently in all different media and know who your target audience is.

So if your Target audience isn't LinkedIn, don't worry about TikTok.

If it's TikTok, go all in for the right business model for the right career.

Right.

It's an incredible marketplace.

So is Instagram, so is Facebook.

Maybe X is too.

I'm not a strong believer in X, but there are people who just.

They post like 7 to 10 times a day on X and it works for them.

They've built their brand.

So you're gonna have to do those things because the tiny backstory.

I stopped by my old college after 25 years and walked the campus and just started talking to students.

Every one of them asked me what my major was because they can't figure out what to study.

And they're not wrong because they don't know how to create a career with their four years of college education.

Because it's.

It probably won't look like that or even exist.

They're going to have 10 or 15 career terms in their life, if not more.

So all you've got is your brand that you're going to take with you and you're going to evolve and enhance and expand.

You have to be bold enough to put that out there fully and develop it and learn and grow that.

Which means most of the time it's going to be communication skills.

That's what I would tell on all of them.

I was like, study communication because that will always be important and be really good if there's a chance to get up in front of that class.

Get up in front of that class every chance you get.

Get good at being in front of people.

Yeah.

Said great insight, too.

I think you're right.

I think there the question will never be, where'd you go to school?

It'd be, what have you built?

What have you done lately?

And that's where we need to focus on.

I think the old model's dead.

If you have a PhD from years back, from the early 2000s, to me, all that means is at one time in time, you used to know a lot about something, but it's evolved and it's a change.

Which I can find out on this thing.

Yeah, exactly.

I was reading one stat.

It's 7 hours and 4 minutes or 6 hours and 12 minutes a day.

People are scrolling streaming on their devices and where you got all the wisdom of the ages at your fingertips.

And I said, yeah, we spend our time, you know, 30, 40 hours a week on entertainment instead of making ourselves a little better.

So imagine how.

Fred, this was just great.

How much imagine if our listeners would feel if your life and career, if you could be 20% more confident.

You want to go on your website.

It's fredjoyle.com you can take the bowl.

You've got a quiz there for people to take.

You can watch yourself in action and they can buy the book.

I got podcasts.

You can buy the book.

Amazon or wherever they get their books.

Super Bold is the book and strongly shocking.

Remind it.

We'll have all of those details in the show notes.

Fred, this was a treat and good for me too.

I learned a lot on this and I've always considered myself bold.

So I feel like I got a nice kick in the butt from one colleague to another.

So I appreciate that.

Thank you.

So much for your insights and sharing your time and your wisdom with our listeners.

Thank you very much everybody out there.

Just keep getting bolder as you are.

Listening to this episode.

What is one idea that you've heard that has caught your attention and why does it matter so much to you?

And who is one person who you can share that with, either sharing this episode or just sharing that insight that occurred to you while you were listening?

Perhaps it is how you can build.

Your confidence faster than you imagined possible.

Or how in 90 days you can.

Develop your boldness muscle which will give you a competitive edge and transform your personal and professional life.

Thank you for listening, for learning, and for investing in yourself so that you can become the best version of you.

If you found value in this episode, please write a review on Apple Podcasts.

If you haven't subscribed yet, please do.

So so that you can get a.

New episode and start your week off right every Monday.

Until next time.

This podcast is created and associated with Summit Media.

My Executive producer is Beth Smith and Director of Research Tori Smith.

The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

This podcast is subject to copyright by Summit Media.

Goodbye.