Greg Licciardi - The Modern-Day "Holy Grail" of Marketing

In 3, 2, 1.

Welcome back to the Becoming Preferred podcast where we help you become the emotional favorite in your market.

Today we are in for a masterclass on a topic that is the very foundation of all business success.

Marketing.

My guest is someone who spent his.

Entire career at the intersection of brand strategy, consumer behavior, and marketing innovation.

We have the privilege of sitting down with Greg Licciardi.

As the vice president of sponsorships and partner programs at the association of National Advertisers, the ana, he works with some of the most influential brands in the.

World, helping them elevate their campaigns and.

Connect with their audience.

With an MBA from Fordham and over.

A decade of experience as an adjunct professor of marketing, he's not just a practitioner, he's an educator who understands the principles behind what works.

He's also the author of the new book, the Holy Grail of Marketing.

From American Express to Univision, Greg has consistently delivered award winning results.

And today he's here to share his hard won wisdom with all of us.

Get ready to rethink how you approach your marketing efforts.

Join me now for my conversation with Greg Licciardi.

Well, hi, Greg.

Welcome to the program.

We're delighted to have you.

Thank you for having me, Michael.

It's such an honor to be on your show and to talk with you about the great topics that you've written about and that you share on your podcast.

Well, I'm excited to have you.

And we're going to be talking about the holy grail of marketing.

And when we think of the term holy grail, we go, you know, what is that?

Because we know what the holy grail is, but of marketing, we're going to get right into it.

Before we get there, Greg, we like to always go with a little bit of background.

How did Greg become Greg?

So you grew up in the New Jersey area.

I know you live in Summit, New Jersey.

That's right.

But let's go back to high school days and you're deciding to go to college and what you want to be when you grow up.

And.

And how did you get on this path?

Yeah, so I always studied business and marketing.

So I went to Rutgers University and I started working and realized that one day I'd like to teach.

So I went back to graduate school at Fordham University and got my mba.

And when I was studying at Fordham, I focused on marketing and product management.

And in doing that, I developed a great passion and interest for the marketing sector.

My first job out of school was working at a small boutique ad agency and advertising agency in soho and I kind of just dove in and about, you know, five years after getting some work experience, I went back to my marketing chair at Ordem and I said, look, there needs to be a course that really focuses on multi platform advertising that could target not just people who want to go into product management, but into media as well.

And he gave me a shot.

So I started with a one and a half credit course and that developed over the years into a full course.

And I've been teaching now 10 years.

It's hard to believe.

I teach at Fordham and Seton Hall.

Seton Hall's in New Jersey, in South Orange, which isn't too far from where I live, and Fordham, which is in, you know, the Bronx and in Manhattan.

I love the whole sales and marketing world.

And how do we get people to, you know, buy the things we're selling, this product, services.

How have you seen it evolve?

So you've started out, you're teaching it now.

So let's go back a decade or so because you've had 10 years of doing this when you started and where we are today, what does that evolution look like?

What are you seeing?

Yeah, so it's, and this is a really good question because marketing has changed greatly and it's changing right now at breakneck speed.

As AI is coming in and new marketing technologies, it's really changing the whole marketing industry and it's causing a lot of upheaval.

In some ways I would say there's positive things as well as challenging aspects to what's happening.

And so the biggest thing is that marketing gives brands the ability to really focus on short term gains very easily.

Right.

So if you have to hit next quarter's numbers, there's a lot of, we call them bottom of the funnel marketing technologies that can help you optimize your performance, track your performance and do it in a way that is cost effective.

Right.

And you can measure every dollar you invest.

So that can seem really great.

Right.

You know, and, but it also can cause a lot of things that go away from what I know you focus on, which is that emotional connection that, that brand purpose that you have to be consistent with in growing your brand.

I've seen an EV of it and like you say, the technology enables us to do things quicker, faster, better.

But at the end of the day, I remember, let's go back two decades, we used to sit in front of the CFO and say, hey, Mr. CFO or Ms. CFO, here's what we can tell you about your $10 million marketing budget.

Half of it's going down the toilet.

The other half is going.

We just don't know which half.

Yeah, the toilet.

You know the Wanamacher quote.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

And then Al Ray's came, you know, and there's all been this evolution of marketing, but at the end of the day, it's about getting attention, I think, and making people aware about it and then being there when they need us and hey, telling that story.

But it's forming those bonds and those emotional connections.

And you know, I've seen it to where we used to do the ad buys and then we would take percentages of the ad buy and the budgets, but.

But now it's got down to where we don't always need big agencies.

The tools are accessible.

All of us, we can use the web.

We can actually get right down to the metric.

Instead of doing a flyer and Hope something with 2% return or 5% return, we can go right to where did that source come from.

We can find out exactly where it is and we can expand and scale accordingly.

So I think it's got better maybe that authenticity that comes with it.

So it's critical that we have that message and we're going to get into all of that.

So let's actually maybe start this way.

Your book is entitled the Holy Grail of Marketing.

So for our listeners, what is exactly the holy Grail and.

And why is it so elusive for so many businesses?

Yeah.

So to answer that question, I'd like to share how I came up with writing the Holy Grail of marketing.

Maybe that would help.

But coming out of the pandemic, I got hooked on fast food.

I got hooked on Wendy's.

I love her chicken sandwiches and their fries.

So I would go in and order Wendy's or I would order it online and then get on a zoom call and then go pick it up.

And I noticed on Friday mornings around 11am I started getting Wendy's ads sent into my social feeds.

And I was said to myself, this is the holy grail of marketing.

They're reaching the right person.

They know I've been there before and I like Wendy's.

They're reaching the right person with the right message.

They're sending me coupon offers at the right time, right before lunch and in the right environments in my social feeds where I'm engaged and the right outcome is happening because I'm not going to Burger King and I'm not going to McDonald's.

I'm going back to Wendy's.

So when that happened, that epiphany I started researching other companies that were doing it really well and those became my case studies.

But there were two other things that happened.

One was we already discussed this a little bit.

As brands were becoming dazzled by AI, they were losing that emotional connection they were having and that was with their consumers and that was what was becoming at risk.

The second thing was that brands as marketing was now moving at breakneck speed, needed a North Star, a framework to really guide them through these complex marketing times that we're in and will continue to be in because it's only going to move faster as AI sets in.

So with that I came across a company called the Weather Company and I don't know if you've heard of them, they were owned by IBM, they were spun off about two years ago.

And I met the cmo, Randy Stipes, who's amazing and, and I shared with her the framework of my book and what I was planning.

She said, okay, this sounds like it ties into what we do because the Weather company, they provide weather data to brands to help them reach their consumers at the right time.

Related to weather with empathy.

Right.

So she gave me three case studies.

ELF Skincare, which is like one of the fastest growing brands right now in America, Sarah Face Skincare and Toyota.

And they were just such great examples of how they use technology and data to reach the right person at the right time, at the right message, in the right environments.

And so I kept going and I met the number three hire at Harry's Razors and yeah, this guy John Gillis.

John, yeah, John's incredible.

So Harry's, when they launched, they went up against the giant Gillette, which is owned by PNG.

So they had 63% market share at the time and it was very simple.

They, these guys, the two founders saw the white space out there.

An affordable, stylish razor that could be sent to a young dad's home, right.

That would be easy to purchase, affordable, stylish, and they use their early customers as their preachers to go out and share the great product that they have.

And they use gamification, they use all different aspects.

So the book kind of breaks down the framework to these success stories.

And we also look at companies not doing the holy grail marketing well.

So it really goes across the spectrum.

So that's how I came up with the book.

A long story short, I know I'm kind of answering your question a long way, but it really, my goal with the book is to make it the must read modern day marketing book for anyone who's you know, either they're new to marketing, they're a student right out of school, someone who just got funding to launch a startup and now they have to market their brand.

A brand manager at Mars who's launching a new candy product.

So it's really a broad spectrum of readers that I'm targeting with the book.

But.

Well, I think it's important to get.

Once you have the framework can be adjusted no matter what the technologies are and you can decide where you want.

Absolutely.

So it's interesting because people think you have to have big budgets for this.

But it's like becoming preferred.

We don't spend a dime on advertising.

But if you were to go on Google becoming preferred, the first two pages are all ours and it's all because we have authentic content that we've created so much of it.

Authenticity is.

So is there.

And two first two pages we just.

It's us.

So nobody's going to get that.

We own that one because nobody's even going to come close.

Which then adds value to the domain.

It adds value to the keyword.

It gives us something to work with.

Other companies, they require more advertising to get there.

But I love the whole point of the right message at the right time with the right individual and in the right environment.

That's a new one to consider.

But this is where even targeting like when we send out our emails, our systems will determine what are the best times and predict when's the best time that you open your emails.

So it will actually go in and check and the AI will look at that and go so it'll send it to you.

It might be a Thursday afternoon or it could be a post whenever you open your emails.

And then you know, we're always amazed.

We always think it's with the echo and Amazon we'll be.

My wife might be talking about something and all of a sudden we're getting ads coming across.

So I.

Somebody's listening somewhere.

Either that or they're good guessers.

But yeah, the technology, it's got the good points and the bad points and I don't mind that.

Absolutely mind having things put that I'm interested in.

So if I'm interested in it, I don't mind it but because at the end of the day I'm not going to buy it unless I'm interested in it and I want it.

So it's kind of like curating for us.

Absolutely.

Based on our.

And that's.

And that's the positive side of AI.

Yeah.

Personalization with authenticity.

That personalization and authenticity can't happen without the data.

Right.

So like, for example, I used to work for this UX firm and one of our clients was Goop.

Gwyneth Paltrow's.

I don't know if you heard of Goop Day.

She's a cosmetic site and lifestyle site.

And they used at the time, and this is going back about four years, but at the time they were using dynamic web pages.

And what that means is when an individual went on a site and purchased, let's say if you went on and bought a shirt, you know, the shirt you're wearing, a nice black, stylish shirt.

Right.

The next time you went on Goop, a nice stylish black shirt, maybe in a different slight, slightly different style would appear.

And then a nice watch with a black band, you know, curated to what your interests are.

Yeah.

And today that's the ki.

It curates responses, knowing your previous behaviors and purchases and likes and interests behaviors.

So that when it gives you an output, it doesn't just give you the answer, but it goes beyond that.

And that today is service.

That's what Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz.

That's what they all strive for.

How can they surprise and delight their customers?

And that's where the, that is the most positive aspect of marketing.

Yeah, that we're going to see going forward.

That's going to be improved.

But along the way, we're also dealing with a cesspool ecosystem of programmatic and automation that is becoming very detrimental.

And fake news sites, where all of a sudden your ads on some fake site and it's more detrimental than positive because the environment's not conducive to your brand message and it could create more harm than damage.

So there's a lot of aspects that marketers have to be watching out for.

And I think if you're staying in that realm, like whether it's a content that you're sending out or education or advisor, people can put it out pretty quickly because people get lazy.

I think to your point, the curation of all those key points, how can we stop the customer from burning calories?

Because if they have, if they have to burn calories to go find your product and find the right fit and the right bill.

So let's help them.

Like I remember you're talking about, that's.

A really good, good analogy.

Yeah, that's how I reference it.

And that's going, is your website making burn calories?

So I got to go hunt and find.

How many clicks do I have to get to where do I want to get to?

I know in 30 seconds whether I'm staying on your site or not.

So that's right.

And I think it's 65, 70% of people stay on page one.

You know, they never get there.

So I've got to lead you.

And keep scrolling.

Oh, okay.

Keep scrolling, keep scrolling.

Right.

And that's right.

I should be telling you a story, but I know for a fact, you know, let's say I blue is my color and it knows blue is my color.

And I'm checking out Hondas or BMWs or whatever I'm looking at, I'm going to see a blue one and they're going to show me different shades, midnight blue, sky blue.

And we can even get those kind of details and data.

That's right.

It can get a little creepy.

But at the same time, I personally don't care because I like to see it.

I like to see how they tailor that approach to it because then it gives you some clues.

Right.

And you can.

That's right.

Oh, how are they doing that?

So that's, that's so true.

Yeah.

It makes the personalization, it's the name of the game so powerful.

And that's where the engagement comes in.

That's where the trust comes in.

And that's right.

Authority or trust.

And well, here's an example.

Let's say that you're selling me a widget or marketing services.

You're selling me marketing service.

You're a marketing agency and somebody calls up from your company and tries to set up appointment with me and go, hey, we're a great marketing agency.

Here's all the areas that we work at, here's how wonderful we are, blah, blah, blah.

Look at all the awards we win.

Because a lot of companies, agencies were very, let's win some awards which didn't generate more sales.

They were more focused on the awards than getting sales.

And then typically if you have a bad campaign, they blame sales and sales, then blame marketing.

So I've always believed in, instead of two silos, it should report to one executive just because.

Well, it's.

That's a really good point.

And I have a whole chapter on that.

Oh, excellent.

How holy grail marketing translates to increased sales and how in that chapter I write about how sales and marketing are increasingly converging, emerging.

And as performance based marketing becomes a stronger part of budgets, that there's more transparency, there's the teams that work together because the marketing, now the data is what's coming from marketing.

It's not just a tech team off to the side.

Right.

And the more you can get inbound leads coming to your sales team through these different marketing campaigns, the more successful the sales team will be.

But they can't get that without marketing, and that's a real positive thing as well.

And you're seeing marketing teams now getting a budget bonus structure built into their compensation based on sales.

So they're now getting compensated for increased performance.

The flip side of that, the average tenure of a CMO today is three and a half years.

If you're not performing as a cmo, you're not going to last too long.

You're going to get voted off the island.

So it's both sides of the coin.

But marketing is now being seen more as a profit center than a cost center, which it's.

It's been for a long time, but it hasn't been recognized for that.

And now it's finally happening, which is great.

Well, and the numbers change.

Like back when we started, they always said 2% is a good number of your budget, your revenue to pay.

On marketing, I would say now it's probably 5 to 10% and gone up and again by segmenting, by finding your tribe.

So, for instance, if you're selling me those same marketing services, but now you're contacting me and going, hey, we specialize, and it's a vertical initiative with professional speakers and training companies or with podcast hosts.

Well, now you're getting my attention because it's about me.

So if you go, hey, it's Greg.

We're marketing agents that we specialize with professional speakers.

We recognize that your needs are different from anyone else's needs.

And is that true?

No.

But do I think it's true?

And the answer is yes.

Yes.

Whatever.

I'm thinking you should just validate me.

I'm going, that's why as speakers, we use keynote instead of PowerPoint.

It's like I have these lozenges I use.

This is a great story, actually, in marketing they're called vocal zones and they're designed for professional speakers and singers.

And I was with my mom.

We were.

She wanted to go see Tom Jones in Las Vegas.

So I have to admit, it was a fun concert and he did a great job.

I enjoyed it, which I hesitate to.

Say I've seen him.

Yeah, he's good.

He's good at what he does.

He still has it.

Yes.

And I see him, he's not drinking any water and he's doing two hour concert and I see him put a lozenge in his mouth twice.

And so I went and inquired what's the story?

And because I have to have water when I'm speaking, like just to drink water.

So I found out these vocal zones and they little tabs are little lozenge comes in a nice box.

But if you go to their website it's all the speaker endorsements.

You'll know everybody, you'll know all the singers you know.

Well, that's my lozenge.

Now maybe a Tic Tac does the same job, maybe a Halls does the same job, but it's not designed for professional speakers or podcasts.

So I have my own lozenge and I don't mind paying five bucks for two little packs of it in order to do it because it's for me.

Right?

It's for me.

So I think the personalization works Are.

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And now back to my conversation with Greg Licciardi.

So tell me, as a professor and marketing executive, you have a unique perspective on the gap between theory and practice.

So what's one of the biggest misconceptions about marketing that you've seen in the classroom that just doesn't hold up in the real world?

Yeah.

What are they teaching?

What are they teaching in other schools?

Maybe because I know you're aware and you're saying so.

I still teach the four Ps of marketing price, product placement, promotion, and that's still important.

But marketing has evolved beyond that.

There's so much more that goes into a marketing campaign.

So I think students, the big thing today is upskilling to the latest marketing techniques.

So in my book, one of my contributors is Vera Su from Microsoft.

She's very high up in AI and data.

She's frequently quoted and she talks about the importance of upskilling and the humanization of AI that has to be instilled in organizations.

So that when someone comes into an organization, into a marketing team, they're not just up on AI and AI techniques and AI technologies, but they are skilled at how to curate outputs, how to look at them and make them authentic and make them, you know, have that human element.

So that it's just not a generic message, but it really has a significance, a relatability to the audience they're targeting.

And that still takes a training.

It takes looking at things differently.

And that skill set has to be instilled in marketing employees today more than ever.

So people think, oh, you know, you don't need those skill sets anymore.

You absolutely need them even more than ever.

And so I would say the most important thing with anyone going into marketing or that's coming out of a business school or marketing program is that all those analysis you've done in the papers wrote on case studies and your opinion being shared in those papers will carry through.

Your opinion is always going to be needed.

So keep honing in on your ability to be a strong analyst, to have that analysis and really think forward on what messages and what marketing is going to work best against this specific consumer segment.

Yeah, it seems like the classroom, from my experience from school, it always focused on the what and the how of a campaign.

But business world, it seems obsessed with the why and why did it work?

The why?

What was the return on the business?

This what was.

That's exactly right.

Yeah, that's so important.

Yeah, the why.

And I write about that in the book.

I'm so happy you brought that up.

The why, you know, in my great message chapter, it really is the why doesn't happen without the data and knowing inside and out who your consumer is.

But what keeps them up at night, what makes them click, and where does your product fit into to fulfilling that, that consumer need?

You know, that white space that's out there where your product is filling that whether it's a product or service.

Well, that was Simon Sinek's book.

Start with why.

And it's ah, yeah, sense.

It's like he says, you know, Apple doesn't say, hey, we make really amazing computers made out of aluminum and solid integrated parts.

Want to buy one?

Apple that's right.

And says, hey, we make really amazing computers so that you can create anything you want to create.

Want to buy one?

And to get to that motivation of it, I had another guest on last season.

He calls it what's your Because?

I should buy this because.

What's your Because?

Why should I have this Because.

Love it.

What's your Because?

Say that ten times fast.

Exactly.

But that's really great.

It's where it's there.

With your experience at the association of National Advertises, the ana, you've seen leading brands elevate their campaigns.

What's a key strategy or secret weapon that large successful companies use that small business or entrepreneurs could adopt?

Yes.

So.

And thank you for mentioning.

So I'm Vice president, Partnerships and Sponsorships at the association of National Advertisers, the ana.

And the whole mission of the ANA is to provide marketers with the ability to do their jobs more effectively and to produce better results.

And so at our conferences, we have several.

Our big one coming up is Masters of Marketing in October in Orlando.

We have a lot of marketing leaders get on the main stage and talk about the successes that they're having and how they're creating success.

And a lot of today is about storytelling, the ability to tell your story, to educate audiences and to do that cross platform.

Right.

So TikTok is one of our big partners.

They're a strategic partner of the ana and they've had incredible growth, as everyone knows.

Right.

And the reason is they have these creators out there, these influencers that are telling brand stories with authenticity.

They have their tribes that are already following them, that they trust, they have built in trust.

Yeah.

And they take these influencers and provide them with their brand and the ones that, you know, align with their brand and give them the authority to say, hey, share this with your following.

Share this with your audience.

Tell them, educate them on our product, let them know how special we are.

And that is really where the rubber is hitting the pavement today, where brands are excelling, you know, and it comes down to storytelling.

It comes down to really being strong at that.

Think of you and me being at a bar somewhere and you telling me something, you know, really cool about your business, something that's different about your book and what's happening.

And you're telling it to me in a very personalized way, very authentic way.

And nothing can compare to that.

No ad, no 30 second commercial, no print ad, no radio ad, no billboard, nothing can compare to that.

So it's really great.

And people trust that.

They love the Personal advocacy, they trust it.

If we're, if we were talking about tv, my wife and I like to binge and watch shows.

Sometimes once or twice a week we'll put on two, three episodes of something, right?

So think Game of Thrones, think Mob Life, whatever.

Yeah.

So once I know, hey, what are you watching?

What are you guys watching?

And I know what you like.

Genre, I can give you different genres.

So it might be go see, you know, this one or go see Mobland.

We just watch.

Oh, that's good.

Or go see Sons of Anarchy, whatever you're into and people check that one out.

Or what are you watching on Netflix or Paramount or whatever your favorite device is, right?

So it's creating that advocacy and people trust that.

And advertisers, they don't trust.

So it's way down there like with salespeople, basic and politicians, I think it's the only thing that becomes worse than that.

So when you're looking at something market, so I love the authenticity and the story and make it relevant and personal and what is the story and take care of it.

So that makes sense, you know, from a personal advocacy point of view, what would you say, looking ahead, what's the biggest marketing trend that you believe professionals and entrepreneurs should be paying close attention to right now?

I think that brands can't lose sight of the value of brand purpose and the, the ability to really have a strong brand ethos.

So right now everyone's talking about AI, everyone's talking about automation, right.

Programmatic, how to get your brand out there, like we talked about in the beginning of our discussion.

But it's proven that the stronger the brand purpose your brand has and the awareness level of that, as it goes up, the stock value, the value in that company goes up in proportion, direct proportion.

That's interesting.

And today.

Well, one of my contributors talks about this, James Wright, and he talks about this correlation and it's really powerful stuff.

And today if you look at younger generations and Gen Z, this is really important to them.

If your brand isn't giving purpose driven marketing, if your company isn't giving back, isn't contributing to society in some way and another brand is, they're going to go with that other brand that's doing it.

Right?

So and you just, you have to walk the walk, you have to talk to talk and your brand message has to come through and it has to resonate and that's where the automation can't do that.

No, it can't do that.

So it's so important.

So the trick is aligning the purpose with the right audience.

So, for instance, I'm a baby boomer.

That's right.

And I should be more concerned about.

We're the ones who screwed up the planet.

That CEOs that are robbing them blind.

You can thank us for that.

Okay.

You know, it's kind of like when I talk to millennials in the audience, I go, how many are millennials?

Hands go up.

And I'll say to them, how many of you ever heard that?

Millennials, you guys are entitled.

You have an entitlement mentality.

And of course, all hands go up.

And I'm going, I think you ought to be entitled.

I said, personally, I think so.

I said, you're entitled to a safe city.

You're entitled to clean air, you're entitled to clean water.

You're entitled to walk down the street and not get mugged.

You're entitled.

That's right.

To go to college and rack up a hundred thousand or two hundred and then get a good job when you exit, if that's how you're going to do it.

Those are entitlements.

Absolutely.

That's right.

Work for it.

And we created that for you.

So, yeah, I'm good with that.

But it's relating to them and they're going, yeah.

And then link it to what they value.

And every generation has its own value system.

And so that way, one campaign doesn't fit all niches.

This is why we see different.

You know, Apple might show an elderly couple working and talking FaceTime with their kids or grandkids.

That's right.

Show me dancing in the street with my ipods going and our AirPods.

And I'm playing my favorite music from itunes.

So I think it's matching the message to what is the goal?

What's the motivation so important?

Yeah, I think so too.

So it kind of goes that way.

You've taught at Fordham and Seton hall and you continue to teach as a professor.

What's one piece of advice you consistently give to your students that is just as relevant for a business owner or marketing professional?

Today, it's just important to be up on the latest trends.

Okay, so in every class that I teach, I always do current events and I do something called a dynamic insight presentation.

It's 12 minute presentation.

The students have to relate a current news story to what we're learning in class.

Okay.

So, so.

And it's amazing what they present and what they find.

So it's really great stuff.

Whether, you know, it's Nike buying another footwear brand or New things that are happening.

AI coming into marketing and how it's changing privacy rights and laws.

And it's just really fascinating.

And I say, you go on an interview, you need to be able to talk.

You need to be up on the latest trends.

I said everyone should be reading.

You know, in a lot of the universities, they get a free New York Times, they get a free Wall Street Journal.

And these aren't cheap.

Even though a lot of them are digital now, they're still very expensive.

Yeah.

And they're free.

They're free for students at a lot of universities take advantage of that.

Yeah, they don't read.

So.

So you got to be up on the current trends and that that's throughout schooling and when you're a young professor, throughout your career, but especially now, as things are, things are happening so quickly.

It's so important right now, stay relevant.

I've been at a long time relevant.

Exactly.

I showed up, it's like we knew this was going somewhere and we figured, okay, is AI going to replace what we do?

No, but someone who knows how to use it well is going to replace what we do.

And so for us, yes, how do we adapt it so it helps us create content quicker, faster, new ideas, but we still add that organic element to it to relate it for the personalization and the authenticity that comes with the story.

So I think that's critical as well.

For someone who's new to the marketing world, what's the single most important skill they should focus on to develop and build a successful career?

Staying relevant.

We just kind of covered one of them for sure, but anything relevant.

But you also have to be a good networker because the marketing field is a very social field.

So you have to be learning from your co workers and from your fellow industry professionals on these trends, but also learning about where are the future opportunities existing and who's doing it right, who's not doing it well.

So it's really a social industry, so you have to be a good networker, but you also, again, you have to be looking to be upskilling yourself.

You know, there's so many courses that outside of an MBA or master's degree, there are so many master classes that you can take on different aspects of marketing technologies and AI.

There are so many AI certificate courses out there.

I think every training company is trying to make a buck on this growth.

Right.

But look, if you just did a certificate program in AI and marketing and you go in for an interview or go for a promotion and the person next to you hasn't you're going to have that competitive advantage.

So keep that in mind.

Plus, it's good, it's fun to learn new things.

It's good to think about.

It opens your mind.

It's always good to be well rounded.

Yeah.

You know, you can see the evolution.

It's not always the one idea.

It's what that makes you think about or how does that work for you?

And again, I'm a firm believer in niching down and your verticals and then appealing to the vertical versus say, mass market.

So I think I love that.

You know, if I'm working with chiropractors, I'm going to go after chiropractors.

You can interview that group or make some purchase, get the first one.

That's the hardest one to get.

And once we get the first one, we know we can go get everybody else because we know what those points are.

So we can go from there.

Well, to conclude, if you could leave our listeners with one final actionable piece of advice to help them get closer to finding their own holy grail of marketing, what would it be?

Well, I would say that the ability to reach the right person at the right time with the right message in the right environment.

Right.

To orchestrate that.

And it is a holistic approach, comes to really knowing your audience, like really immersing yourself in who they are and where they exist.

Because the more you know about them, the more successful you'll be at marketing to them and winning them over.

So there's so much, so much marketing technologies and AI, of course, that's helping brands do this, but don't always take the shortcut, really.

So like for example, do the work.

I remember at the ad agency we were launching a barbecue sauce.

We were helping a brand launch.

We had to dive in to barbecue sauce.

I tasted almost every type of barbecue sauce that existed.

But we also did these in person focus groups.

So when people tasted the barbecue sauce, we could actually see how they reacted, their facial expressions.

We looked at the color of the bottles and how they reacted with those different colors.

Like we immersed ourselves not only in the sector but in those consumers that love barbecue sauce to find out what makes them tick.

So it was really, really great.

No, it's an interesting perspective.

Well, this was great, Greg, lots we can talk about.

The book is the Holy Grail of Marketing.

The website.

Yes.

Is Holy grail of marketing dot com.

Holy Grail of marketing dot com.

It's sold pretty much anywhere.

Amazon, Barnes and Noble.

And so I feel whoever is watching this will really get A great deal.

It's a very inspirational book covering our discussion and lots of good stories on.

What'S worked and what hasn't worked.

So it's good.

That's right.

I want to ask, I'm just curious, is the pitch dead?

Like we see a lot of young people, they're coming out with no marketing experience.

They're coming out with a message.

That 30 second sound bite or elevator pitch where they're blah, blah, blah, like a movie pitch.

And it's going nowhere because they're just quick pitching.

Is the pitch dead or is it still a valid piece of what we do?

It's still a valid piece, but it's changing.

So again, back to storytelling.

I don't think that the pitch as far as you watch Mad Men, I'm sure, right?

Absolutely.

Don Draper and getting in there.

I love the Hilton pitch.

Go to the moon.

I was old school.

Six, seven.

Yeah.

I love that.

Right.

So I think that that ability to win a client over.

But you have to listen first.

You have to understand the brief.

You cannot just go in with some splashy creative that may not be on target that you think is good just because it'll have the wow factor.

But you have to really understand what are everyone talks about this KPI's key performance indicators.

What is it they want to achieve?

And you need to deliver on that.

You need to show not only results, but how you're going to track the results.

Yeah.

How are they going to measure success?

Yeah.

Because that becomes your anthem.

Yeah.

Greg Licciardi, this was fabulous.

Thank you and thanks for your generosity with your insights.

Appreciate you being here.

Thank you for having me.

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