Returning Guest, Coach Jim Johnson - Level Up Your Game with the 8 Cs of Leadership

In 3, 2, 1.

Welcome back to another episode of Becoming Preferred, the podcast dedicated to helping you stand out in a crowded marketplace by becoming the preferred provider and the leader of choice.

Today we are joined by coach Jim Johnson, a returning favorite who truly understands what it means to lead under pressure.

He's a Hall of Fame basketball coach and a world class speaker.

But whether he's in the locker room or a boardroom, Coach Jim Johnson knows that winning isn't just about the score.

It's about the soul of the team.

Today we're breaking down his powerful framework, the eight Cs of leadership, to find out how you can earn the right to be followed and how to stay relevant in a never changing professional landscape.

Join me now for my conversation with coach Jim Johnson.

Hi, Jim.

Welcome back to the program.

We're delighted to have you one more time.

Well, thank you, Michael.

It's great to see you and I'm looking forward to having a discussion.

It should be fun.

Well, I'm really excited about this topic because I think it's so topical.

And we're going to talk about leadership and how we earn our roles as leaders.

And you've created what you call the eight Cs of leadership.

And we're going to kind of dive and unpack some of those.

And it seems more than ever, Jim, that leadership is just something we need help with.

We see it in the corporate world, we see it in our political world and everything else.

What's your general state of the union sense of leadership and where it is in the world today?

Boy, that's a loaded question, Michael, because leadership is always in my mind been so essential if you're going to build any kind of team, organization, a country, whatever.

And right now I see some real void in leadership.

So my focus is trying to help people become better leaders of not only themselves, but how to influence people in a positive way.

And so there's some things that I try to share ideas every week in my blog, in my posts about the fact of what we need to be effective leader.

Because I think right now we've gotten away from that.

And so it's part of my job right now to help people become better leaders because we want to unite people, not divide them.

Yeah.

And I say the same thing.

There's a lot of corporately we're saying it, we say it with our leaders.

We're just.

And it's like the pendulum swung to a point where it's even hard to call it leadership just because it's so self serving culture and Our society is that way to compare to other countries.

Let's dive into this because you came up with the eight Cs of leadership, which I think are great.

Number one is character.

We're talking about the character of individuals.

And.

And you start with character.

So for an entrepreneur, say, building a brand, the office is often everywhere.

So how can a leader ensure that they remain the same person on and off the court?

And we're using that example because that's your background with basketball and I know you got a good story on that.

But when they're on and off the court, when the pressure to perform is at an all time high, you know,

I didn't put in rank order.

There's a lot of Cs I could have added or deleted, but the character was intentional because I think it does start with.

And you said it very well, is that are you the same person that people can trust in the corporate world or on the court, in my case, as you are off the court, behind closed doors.

And I believe that's so essential.

And one of the things I used to tell my family and tell my players is when they think of a person of high integrity, do they think of you?

And if not, why?

Because you're probably not building trust with them.

Because you're probably saying one thing and not aligning your words and actions.

So that to me is where it all starts.

We used to tell our players almost every day, you are always on stage.

Let me give you just a quick story.

It's a simple story, but it shows the power of example.

And that is, is that I always ask my players to wear something really nice on the road.

In fact, for many years it was a shirt and tie when we would go to another gym.

And one time I did not wear a shirt and tie.

And I'll never forget, we got back to the school and one of our parents as we were walking out of the school said, hey, coach, you always talk about you want to be a great example for our sons and yet you insist they wear a shirt and tie.

And you didn't wear one.

Why not?

And it really hit me hard, Michael.

But it showed the power of leadership and the fact that people are always watching you.

And I learned a great lesson and I will say that I corrected it.

And every game after that I wore a shirt tie, because if I was going to.

So it's just things as simple as that, but modeling the behavior.

So the character that you say consistently and the other thing I think is really important with character is, is being Willing to admit when you make a mistake and apologize and then correct it.

Like my situation, I told their parent, you're absolutely right and I'm going to make amends.

And I did.

So.

Yeah, well, it's the old do as I say, not as I do, but.

Right.

Integrity is what you're saying isn't a part time job.

Yeah.

It's the consistency between our words and our actions that that's how we earn trust or the team's trust.

I think really it's probably an issue of volume.

Like when we're at work we might crank the volume up a little bit and when we're back at home, we turn down the volume a little bit or the amplification of that, however that's supposed to be so.

And character, it's not taught anymore because it really, like, where does it begin?

Like, you know, you and I both grew up in the same time in the 60s.

Right.

And character and values were important.

People's honesty, their integrity, those are the things we actually valued as human beings.

70s, 80s.

And then we started to see this degradation of.

We saw it from our leaders of corporations and businesses.

We've got high salaries, embezzlement, people living large, all just, you name it.

We, you know, there was a.

On and off the court.

We had that leader that I remember there was earlier this year or last year in 2025, at a Coldplay concert, we had a CEO and his HR director caught in an embrace.

He's having.

They're having a fling.

Right?

CEO, that's, that's off the court.

Right?

That's so off the court.

His morals are tanking.

Right.

He's not keeping his commitments and I'm not judging him, but I'm just saying, right.

He's our leader, we're going to judge him.

And now the board kicks him off.

He can't be a leader anymore.

We can't see that.

In other countries.

We've seen issues, you know, with the whole Epstein case, you know how people are on that.

We've seen other countries, people just by mere association are now getting let go and losing their, you know, they're resigning from their opportunity.

Except here, except in America.

We're kind of like, yeah, no, we're still good.

And so why, what's happened to the teaching of the values and teaching character?

How do we teach our young people that one?

Now that's challenge because I do believe it starts in the home.

And we've had some real issues with family dynamics.

You know, I know you're in between US and Canada.

But I know in the US that find family dynamics, but I do want to challenge all of us as a leader is that you can still help model and be a person of high integrity, of character that people want to follow.

And that's what I wrote about, is, are you a person worth following?

And I coached basketball for 35 years, and I had some kids that came from really difficult family situations.

But, you know, I built a bond with them, and I wanted to be the model for them.

And those are things that with integrity.

I'll give you another quick example, is that I got challenged by a mentor in my last 23 years of coaching.

He challenged me, say, Jim, you want to be a great example for your players?

Tell them you're not going to drink alcohol during the season.

And I was not a super big partier, but I would go out after a game and have a couple big drinks and.

And.

And I decided to do it.

And fortunately, I kept my word.

I did not, because I always give an example and I do a leadership presentation.

If I said to my team and my I the parents night, so all the parents are there as well, and then two weeks later, I got pulled over for a dwr, what would that have done?

And those are some of the things we're seeing right now, is that, you know, they say one thing and then they completely do the opposite.

And that.

That crushes that character for sure.

You know, when I look at our leaders, I'm reminded of I.

At the time, I was.

I couldn't vote and do anything.

But I remember when Jimmy Carter was in and we could argue whether he was a good president or not.

We had big gas lines, it was economy, 21% interest rates.

Like things weren't great, right?

No.

And he's not responsible for all of that.

But still.

But he had a consistent set of values.

And even both sides of the aisle trusted him.

Because when he said, was his word right?

If it served him or it didn't serve him, his word was his word.

So I think it's teaching that consistent set of values.

And we don't see it.

And it does start in the home.

You know, I remember I was talking to a friend of ours, a police officer, and she was saying that we went to somebody's home with their son, and we're playing an audio tape of him doing a drug deal.

And the mom and dad go, well, that's not our son.

Yeah, that's her son.

So they said, well, here's the video.

And they're going no, you guys have doctored it.

Our son wouldn't do that.

Our son doesn't do that.

And it's so it starts in the home, but when the parents are there, well, then what does that child learn?

That we're just our.

Where is the character?

So I think it is a good place to start at home.

Let's talk.

You mentioned number two, and I know these aren't in any particular order, but clarity is kindness.

But you also emphasize care.

How do you strike the balance between being a high level challenger and showing your team that you genuinely care about their personal success?

I think the first thing that I really share with leaders is that the old adage, but I think that still rings true today, is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care about them.

And one of the greatest compliments, the best player I ever coached, he ended up playing a couple years in the NBA.

I mean, he came back after his first year in the NBA and he met with my assistant coach, is now the head coach of myself.

And it touched me very deeply because my assistant was asking Anthony, was his name some different things.

And he says, coach, I can tell you that what I admired most about Coach Johnson is I knew he cared more about me as a person than he did as a basketball player.

And that meant a lot to me.

And why I bring that up, not to brag about me, but the point being is that do your people know that you care about them?

And I do a presentation on culture and one of the things I talk about is how are you consistently building relationship?

Are you recognizing people?

Do you get to know them?

Like, do you know about their family?

Do you know when their birthday is?

Do you know if they're married?

Their anniversary is acknowledging those types of things, Are you getting to know them by just asking them questions?

Like example, when I had captains meetings at the beginning almost every week for many years I coached.

But I made a dramatic change in the second half where instead of me just coming in about my agenda, I became what I call the cqa, this chief question asker.

And I would come in and my first question would be to my captains, how's our team chemistry?

And I would just listen.

I'd say, is there anybody on the team that's struggling that we need some extra help with?

Any suggestions on what we should do for practice this week?

And just things like that where I was getting their insights.

So they really felt empowered that they had some say and the fact that that really built some team unity.

So I think showing that you care, one of the things I recommend is I think you got to do one on one meetings with people.

And you know, if it's in a business, yes, in basketball I would talk about some things to help them to be more successful.

But also I wanted to find out about them and get to know them.

And I think that's something that you need to start right away.

I always say to leaders, when you take over a new situation, you should just do a program where you go around and try to meet as many people as you can and get to know them so that you show that you care.

I call it the wandering tour.

You just got to go around and meet as many people and get to know them, because when they know you care, that's a great start.

Well, you call this radical empathy and how, you know, I'm having to develop my empathy.

So for me, some people are empaths.

They're just naturally empathetic.

I was never that way.

Now as I got older, it's like if you blew your knee out and you got a sore knee and you're doing whatever and they're talking to you, I can go, oh yeah, I get that.

Or a bad shoulder, I can relate to you.

I get all those.

Or say you had migraines and I've had migraines, I can go, oh, I totally get it.

But if I don't experience it right, it's very hard for me to develop that empathy.

Right.

Yeah.

So I've had to learn to actively listen, hear what they're talking and try.

And I guess the word I want to use is, I almost want to say fake the empathy initially until that muscle, kind of, that empathy muscle develops.

And a lot of times leaders don't appear empathetic because it seems, I want to say, it seems weaker.

Like, it's like my wife is very, you know, very empathetic.

She's, you know, she'll start, you start crying, she's in with you, she joins.

Right.

And sometimes that might not be what's needed.

So how do we develop empathy if it's not naturally given to us that way?

That would tend to, you know, go along with that.

I don't think I was that empathetic early in my career for sure.

And it's something that I learned as I was really trying to focus on being a better leader by building relationships.

And so a couple of things is you talked about questions, but the where I think you really show empathy is when you ask another question.

Like even simple things like as they talk to you about something is, wow, can you tell me more about that?

You know, what you're feeling about that?

So you're trying to get them into it.

So I call it asking the extra questions.

And then, as you said, really being willing to listen and then give them a cycle of feedback so that when they share something, share it back so that, you know that they, you think that Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand before being understood.

And I think those are things that you're really trying to accomplish in building there.

Because the thing that I think is a struggle because relationships are being built quickly and yet most of us, including myself, want instant gratification.

Instant gratification doesn't come that quickly in building relationships.

So.

But, you know, I think one thing is, you know, Simon Sinek wrote a book called the Infinite Game, and I think that's the mindset we got to be, is that, you know, what is our players, in my case, going to talk about me 10 years from now as opposed to all the, you know, well, did we win the next game?

Type thing.

So, no, I like that.

Ask more questions.

And it's kind of like unlayering that onion.

We do the same thing in sales when we're talking to a client.

Not from an empathetic point of view, but to seek understanding.

Right.

I think that's the fifth habit is first question is the primary and then based on their responses, oh, boy, that must have been hard.

Tell me about that.

How did you deal with that and follow up?

And that's why I say sometimes it's the process and go through the process first and then you actually understand and you develop your empathy.

Because I'm more empathetic today than I was 10 years ago and 10 years before that.

So for me it's a, you know, I've still a long way to go, but I always usually get my first reaction sometimes, oh, glad that's not me then it's unless I can relate to it.

But hey, that's a good starting point anyway.

So, yeah, let's talk about the clarity shift.

Most leaders think they're being clear when they're communicating.

You challenge us to ask, how can I be more clarity?

So what is the one practical communication habit, say, a busy professional can adopt today to eliminate ambiguity?

So that's a really good question, and I heard this from a leader a number of years ago, is it should be so clear not to you, the communicator, but to the people you're expressing to them.

So that's why you have to check for understanding.

What I got caught up early in my career, and I think many leaders do, is they assume I said it, so that means they understand it.

And that's why there's a couple things I always remind leaders.

You're the CRO.

I know I'm using a few acronyms, I guess from the education world, but that's Chief Reminding officer.

So that means that you got to be consistently sharing the message that you want to do and shared it in different ways.

And being a good storyteller and giving them.

I like to share with stories of both warnings and examples.

So in my case, my players, your employees or your team or whatever it is giving them examples, but then really checking to make sure that they understand.

And so, for example, like if you're going over the core values, do they understand what the core values are?

Because you see it up on business as well as I speak to businesses, you know, and some of them know the core values.

But then the thing I dig down deeper is, okay, I see one of your core values is respect.

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

What's that behavior?

And that's why you got to model that and share that and give them examples.

This is what respect means to us.

Because if they don't understand that, then clarity.

And why I say clarity is kindness.

Because they have to have clarity of both positive recognizing things, but also correction.

And as a leader, you got to be clear about what the boundaries are.

You want to empower people, but it doesn't mean that you're going to allow them to spend million dollars on a project.

So.

So really having clarity of what you're going to allow and what you're going to give them some leeway on.

So I think clarity and being consistent with that clarity every day is really important.

Well, I think to get respect, you have to give it.

And as a leader, it starts with you.

So by being respectful.

We see so many examples every day where we see disrespect and we wonder why people are disrespectful.

Fall.

Yeah, because we're seeing it.

And you, I know you've talked about it.

Miscommunication is the silent tax on a business.

So reconfirming understanding saves hours and hours of wasted effort.

So it's important to speak with clarity and.

And we'll get into it.

So I like that.

Which kind of a nice little segue into confidence versus arrogance.

So in a world of business, we often reward the loudest voice.

You define confidence as being vulnerable and welcoming.

New ideas.

So how can a leader pivot from wanting to be right to wanting the right idea?

That was a really tough transition for me because when I got into being a head coach, I thought I knew all the answers.

And when I realized that the best leaders, I truly believe this, are looking for the best answer.

And often it doesn't have to be in my case, my answer.

And that was very hard.

I'll give you a quick little story.

So playing in this Christmas tournament in Pennsylvania, and we're playing, there's two very good teams.

Our team was good and they were.

And we played man to man defense the whole game.

So they called timeout with 15 seconds ago and we were up like a couple points.

And my assistant came to me and he said, coach, go two, three zone.

I said, nah, Steve, you know, we don't play that much.

He goes, they will not know what to do.

And I went with him and he was absolutely right.

They froze like gears in a headlight and we ended up winning the game.

And afterwards I was interviewed by the local press there, and one of the things I learned I gave my assistant coach because they asked me, you know, why did you go to 2, 3 zone?

I said, that was a great suggestion from my assistant.

So I recognized him publicly.

And I think that's a really powerful thing is to making sure that you're using their ideas.

And the other thing about communication and clarity, Michael, is that people want to feel like they're being heard.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that every suggestion I was going to use, but what I think is really important is that making sure that you give them clarity of why in this case, I don't think this is a suggestion we can use.

Now, they may not agree with that, but at least they know where you're coming from.

And that, I think is really essential in building that bond and communication.

Well, and it depends on how you're building your team.

Like, we see examples of good and we see examples of bad.

Yeah, I, when I'm judging it just from my perspectives, but if I surround myself with a team of people who just say yes to me.

Yeah.

Building my board or my team or my cabinet, well, however you want to look at it doesn't matter what.

And no one's challenging my thinking.

Right.

You're going to end up with poor decisions and bad out.

And I think we're seeing symptoms of that in society.

We see it.

So it's important to have people not always agree with us.

And truth should withstand scrutiny.

So.

And right idea we should be able to challenge it.

And then to your point, go, yeah, oh, you know what, I'm sorry on that one or I took the wrong approach on that one.

This should have been a better approach.

You know, we see what's modeled for us just in our environments and we're going, holy cow.

You know, you can see where that hubris or that arrogance kind of.

It sends everything moving south.

Really.

It's not a good thing overall.

So I do get that.

I think that's important.

So true.

The other thing I'll say, Michael, just is that I think another very difficult thing and it took me a while to do this, but as a leader, you have to admit when you're wrong.

And that's a very hard thing to do.

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And now back to my conversation with coach Jim Johnson.

You talk about, and I love this about your focus on competence through the C A N E I is it can E or formula and constant never improvement.

So for a professional who feels they've already reached the top of their industry, how do they begin studying leadership as a separate evolving craft?

So that that's something that what I teach leaders is I think you have to have competence to gain confidence in whatever you're teaching.

Whether you're ahead of a team that builds a W it or my case, I was coaching a basketball team so I really believed I needed to have expertise on how to teach the game in basketball.

From the skills to the plays and on and on and on, but it didn't hit me until probably 10 years in.

You know what the other essential thing is as a head coach is I have to learn how to be a better leader.

And so that's.

I started my, really my journey that I studied leadership, I read a lot, I talked to a lot of people, I listened to a lot of audio programs, I listened to a lot podcast.

Because to me, leadership keeps evolving.

And you got to stay on top of that if you want to be a successful leader is you got to study leadership.

And with that you pick up good ideas and you're going to look to find ways to implement and you're also going to find some of the ideas you used to believe now you've changed your mind on.

And I think that's really important is that you got to keep growing.

Because one of the things that I was proud of when we started to win is that the famous music industry, the one hit wonder, right.

Where did that band go?

Well, it's probably because they didn't keep growing.

It's the same thing.

We hear that all the time with team.

They won a championship.

Where's that team now?

It's probably because they got very complacent.

So as the leader, you really got to fight that.

One of the things I really encouraged myself first as the person of example and then my players is, hey, you know what?

If we don't get better, people are going to pass this right by.

And so it starts with me, I'm going to get better for next year and everybody else.

And then you give them a program of how they can improve.

Yeah, no, no, it's great advice.

Matter of fact, that one rings home to heart.

You know, Jim, I have a book coming out at the end of the month and our audience doesn't know this yet, but we'll send so I'll this.

I'm going to put a plug in for that one right now.

But it's.

Yeah.

To your point though, it's called staying relevant future Proof yourself in the age of AI.

And I have a chapter where I talk about the one hit wonder and I was guilty of that.

I wrote a book that became a bestseller and I rode those coattails 20 years and I talk about that.

I became complacent while others were getting better around me.

And so I had to.

I recognize that.

Thank goodness.

And what can I put into place so that I can stay relevant in a world that's changing so fast?

Because you know, you're a one hit wonder.

What have you done for Me lately.

And it really boils down to continuous improvement and continuous education, which you.

So it's how do I make myself better?

And we only have to do it in increments.

We only have to be increments.

So, like, for instance, now we live in the world of AI.

Well, you know, you're not going to lose your job day I.

But you will lose your job to someone who employs AI and knows how to partner with them.

Right.

And so I think that's going to be important part.

You talk about curiosity, and you talk about becoming the chief question officer or asker in your organization.

This cqa.

You encourage us to be the CQA of our teams.

What are the power questions that every entrepreneur should be asking their employees or partners right now to foster that kind of curiosity?

Well, I do believe, because you want to build relationships.

So I think it just starts with simple things, and you delve deeper.

So it can start as simple as, I want to get to know you.

Tell me a little bit about how you grew up.

And then.

And then you dig a little deeper when they talk about their family.

Well, how did.

How did you feel about that?

Your mother, you know, tell me more about that.

And so you're building a little bit of relationship there first.

And then the second thing is really having the curiosity, because often as the leader, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have the skill set to do every job in your organization.

So just getting in and asking them about, let's say they're working on a printing press and you say, why do you do it that way?

Tell me more so that I can get a better feel of that.

Or when they come to you and say, hey, we really should have this machine instead.

And then you got to delve into it.

Okay, tell me why.

How is that going to benefit you in our business, ultimately the bottom line.

And so really sharing that curiosity every day, and the curiosity starts with, you know, every day is, how can I get a little bit better?

And then really trying to get to know your people in a deeper level, both in my case, on the court and off the court.

And so.

And even having clarity of when you're teaching something and they say, why do you teach it that way?

And you should have some background why right now.

This is why it has been working well for us.

Oh, and saying with curiosity, you make the distinction between listening to understand versus listening to respond.

So how does that shift in mindset change the outcome of a difficult board meeting or a client negotiation?

You really have to understand in negotiation of Any kind of where is the other person coming from?

So trying to dive into their shoes and getting to know what they want, because, you know, it's sometimes in negotiations, you think they want something and it's completely different.

And the reason that you didn't figure that out is because you didn't ask.

You know, often, like in sales, people think the most important thing is, is the price.

Okay?

And in some cases it is, but in a lot of cases it's not.

It's.

They're willing to pay a price.

If it gets the results that you share, it will.

So.

So trying to figure out in the negotiation what is the other side looking for and what are you looking for and how can you bring that together?

So I think that's really important to understand the other side.

And the other thing that I think is really important in when you're meeting with people is doing a little research before you can get to know so much about a person today, it' so much easier than any time in history.

So being prepared, you know, like, I talked to a person today and I did my research.

I didn't know everything about him, but I knew things and I could start the conversation.

The funny thing is, he was a nice guy, Michael.

He didn't ask me one question about me, you know, So I just thought that was fascinating, and that's helped me immensely again, because I used to be the guy that was doing all the talking instead of being the guy that's really listening.

Yeah.

Two of these, one of these.

That's the ratio.

We should be using it, right?

Well said.

I've heard it.

I've heard it said.

We should listen three ways.

Listen to what they're saying, listen to what they need, and listen to what they're feeling and try and listen to those.

You know, I had an interaction with a family member just over a month ago, and we were talking and we got on the subject of politics like we all do, and he's from a fairly conservative perspective and very defensive of.

Of existing policies and where we're at, Right?

And so we were back and forth on that, and it wasn't.

There was no agreement, there was no alignment, There was no.

And so.

And I could tell that he was actually getting agitated because I'm asking the questions because now he's having to defend his position.

And that's not what I was looking for.

So then I started asking a little more, you know, kind of personal questions and then what the underlying issue was.

And that's when all of a sudden there was A meeting of the minds.

And it was like his response was.

Honestly, he goes.

And he was almost in tears.

He goes, I'm just scared.

I'm just really scared.

And I don't know what to do.

And I don't.

So he was adopting a posture.

But his underlying issue was he was just scared.

So it makes sense to, hey, put up the alarm systems, big balls around me.

Put all the defensive mix, put all these things.

But at the heart of it, it was fear.

Right.

Once we got to the issue of his fear, it kind of melted the conversation.

And there was good connection.

Yeah.

It was like, okay, I totally get that.

Right.

I get you and you.

And then we had good communication with it.

So I experienced that kind of firsthand in that way.

Because people will adopt a position, they get buried into it, whatever the position is.

And all of us can relate to this at whatever level.

But it's truly understanding.

What if we try and understand where they're actually coming from?

How did they get that thought?

So even if you're having conversations around religion or politics, we've all been told not to do that.

That I can have a conversation with you about that.

Because I might say to you, how did you come up with that?

How did you arrive at that thinking?

Can you walk me through your thought process of why that's a good idea and have you considered other options and versus getting your point across?

And here's my opinion.

Because really everyone has one.

Right.

Right.

So I think you may.

This is where the curiosity comes in.

Why do they think the way that they think and ask versus tell?

And you can have a little more peaceful conversation.

I'll give you one quick example.

You know, I have a friend and we're pretty different on our politics.

Yeah.

And I just went to him one day and I said, John, I'm really curious.

Can you tell me why when your situation, your beliefs and why.

Yeah.

And I just listened and then I would ask more questions and we had such a great conversation where a few times we had really had heated because I believe this and he believes that.

That.

But really delving deeper and asking those extra questions and getting their perspective on that, whether you agree or disagree.

But if you can really have a good conversation that way.

And we.

I think people want understanding more than they want agreement.

Yeah.

I don't care that you agree with me on my opinion.

Right.

Because that's just an opinion.

Yeah.

But I want you to know you took the time to understand.

And so are you clear?

Yeah.

And I could be wrong or Right.

And the older I get, the more I realize I probably am wrong and that I have that awareness.

Right.

But.

Or I operate under the assumption that I could be wrong.

Right.

And I'm okay if I'm wrong.

It's fine.

I'll change my perspective and apologize if necessary and go.

Thanks for the insight.

So I don't mind evolving, you know, and too often I think we get stuck and then we get, we stay rigid and we're not flexible.

And I think we could do that.

I think our whole country could, could benefit from that as well.

Right.

You talk about embracing the challenge as one of the sea.

When life hands a leader, say a new challenge, you ask if they're excited or scared.

So for those currently facing maybe a market downturn or they're facing a pivot, how can they reframe the fear into a competitive advantage?

My big thing with challenge is that it starts with setting some really high standards, that as a leader you got to be living and sharing and this is the direction we're looking to go, but also being open to having build that famous psychological safety where people feel like they can share their ideas and not be ridiculed.

And so building that safety that you are.

We have high standards here.

And one of the things that you have to do is you have to model and you have to do two things.

You have to praise when you get the behavior you're expecting and with specific praise.

Like I always give the example, like in my basketball situation, instead of saying, nice job, Johnny, that was great, he might like that, but he really doesn't have any clue why.

But if I said, Johnny, that was awesome how you dove on the floor for that loose ball.

That's what championship players do on championship teams.

So now it's very specific.

And then the other thing is going back to the famous relationships because part of the job of a leader is you got to crack.

And so there's some times where as I got to know an individual player, where I could correct them in front of everybody and they handle it well.

And it was a great lesson for all of us.

There's other players, as I got to know them, did not handle criticism publicly very well at all.

So that, that's why it's an artist science.

I would bring them in a one on one and say, John, your effort is not acceptable here.

We have a very high standard and give them some sharing.

And in my case it was very easy because we videotaped everything so we could show this is when you were playing really hard and this was when you weren't.

And I'm seeing too much of the other thing.

So really getting clarity and with that is share that with them and then give them ideas on how they can correct that and then encourage them and when you see them making progress, to make sure that you give them their specific praise.

Yeah.

You say they're not obstacles, challenges, they're just data points needed to correct the behavior and help them grow.

Yeah.

So we get our stats.

It's kind of, you know, like I exercise regularly, but I monitor my numbers, I look at my heart rate, how can I keep lowering it, make sure my blood pressure is in good things.

How do.

So I'm looking at all the key data points.

Right.

Ultimately, in order to change them, I have to change my behavior.

So if the engine light comes on, I got to change my behavior.

Behavior cholesterol's too high, I gotta lower the behavior that's causing too much cholesterol.

So I like that you talk about the role model standard and around consistency and you say consistency is the glue that holds the eight Cs together.

Why is leading by example more effective than say the best written mission statement or employee handbook?

Well, because they see what you do every single day.

And one of the things that I encourage leaders is that, that because I'll often ask them in a leadership presentation, is trust important in building a great cult culture?

And it's always 100% hands.

I said, well, then I challenge you.

Do you have an intentional trust plan on how you're going to build trust?

And what I talk about is being a model.

One of our keys in our trust plan is aligning your words and actions.

So if I say one thing and do another, like if we're practicing at 6 o' clock in the morning, in my example, if I come in at 6:05, I've sent a poor message.

Okay.

But if I'm there at 5:40, then because of one of our non negotiables and one of the things I share with leaders is I do think you have to have some boundaries and some non negotiables.

But it can't be a hundred non negotiables.

There's got to be a couple.

So that you share that by your example day in and day out.

Like one of our non negotiables was being on time.

If you couldn't be on time, be early.

And so but I always modeled that I did not go come late because that is something that I consider a non negotiable.

Going back to my little Tie story.

If it's non negotiable that we got to wear a tie, coach got to wear a tie.

So your modeling is so powerful and I think people have forgotten that because they're always watching you.

Yeah.

And I think their employees are watching and we've got to they'll mirror the leader's behavior.

And this is what we're seeing.

We see it corporately, but we see it in our political world as well.

We're seeing people everywhere model the behavior of our leaders.

Yes.

And that's the culture that we live in and just that value.

So it's interesting.

Boy, time's running out quickly.

But I did want to ask you, you have a Life tip number 28 actually, which is a good one.

It says when people think of a person with high integrity, are they thinking of you?

If a leader realizes today that they haven't been living up to these eight Cs, what's the first step to maybe rebuilding that reputation?

I really think is you got to do some reflection on yourself and say, am I worth following?

And to me is going back to those eight Cs but is that number one, you know, are you a person of character?

Are you a person that they can trust?

Because you align your words and actions, you tell the truth, you find catch people doing right.

Those are some of the things we really encourage leaders to do and it builds that character.

And we've talked about this, but I'm going to say it again.

Are you the same person, person of a high level integrity at home as you are in the marketplace?

In my case, the same person that was on the basketball court is when I leave, when I'm in Wegmans or one of our grocery stores, do I still treat people with respect or am I a jerk?

Because that all is going to be built up with people in that you built that reputation, either a positive or a negative.

Negative.

So I think you've got to be really cognizant of that.

And you know, it's comes down to daily habits and what you feed your mind and the right people around you.

So it's just some things to evaluate if you feel like you're going down the wrong path.

You know, let's say you have a drinking habit.

Okay, that's probably not good.

When then study.

Are the people around you, are they enhancing that or are they trying to help you overcome that?

And so I think really being able to think about who are you hanging around with and what are you feeding your mind?

I know we talked before we went on here about the fact that we don't watch much news anymore because there's so much negative, you know, and so, yes, I want to be informed.

But if you just sit in front of the TV and listen to all the negative news that affects you, there's no question about it.

You're the keeper of what comes into your mind.

So make sure you're feeding it with good information.

I think to be an effective leader, it starts with you being able to lead yourself well.

And when you do that on a consistent basis, then you got a real good opportunity to lead others.

Yeah.

And I think, and you've talked about this, it's never really too late to reset that standard.

And vulnerability about past mistakes is the first step forward to a new legacy.

But what you're talking about is, hey, own it it, suck it up, change it, ask for help in changing it.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Even if it was a leader, say, who got pulled over with a dui, or that leader who got busted at the Coldplay concert, you know?

Right.

He went back to his people and said, yeah, this is not my normal character.

I acted out of character.

This was bad.

It was wrong.

Mistake.

Here's what I've done to correct it.

Here's what I've done.

We all make mistakes.

We all make characters, but it's evolving to that, and people are forgiven living.

If you own it.

They're like, okay, it's fine.

It's good.

You know, it's all good.

So, Jim, this is informative as always.

The website is coachjimjohnson.com if you want to think bigger, lead better and win more, reach out to Jim.

He works with organizations, training keynotes.

Your podcast, Jim, you're just busy, and so we'll send them to your website.

Any final remarks at all?

You know, the last thing I'll say, Michael, is I've actually connected with a few people that are on a kindness movement moment, and it's something I think our world needs.

So I encourage everyone, let's try to be a little bit kinder to each other.

As simple as giving someone a smile or opening a door for them or buying them a coffee, whatever it happens to be.

But let's focus on being kinder to each other.

Yeah, no, it's great insight and it's not that tough.

And do it every day and you build that muscle.

And yes, it's.

At the very least, it's good karma.

So I think we need a kinder, general place, and I think we're ready for the that as a country, we're ready for that.

Jim, Always a pleasure.

Look forward to our next conversation.

Thank you Michael.

Always a pleasure.

As you are listening to this episode, what is one idea that you've heard that's caught your attention and why does it matter so much to you?

And who is one person who you can share that with, either sharing this episode or just sharing that insight that occurred to you while you were listening?

Perhaps it is the realization that clarity is kindness and that miscommunication acts as a silent tactic on your business and relationships.

Or maybe it is the commitment to becoming your team's chief question asker or CQA by listening to understand their needs rather than just listening to respond.

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Goodbye.